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The Finals=blech

I actually didn’t realize how bad Dwight Howard really is until Sunday. Back in the late 80’s and early 90’s Dwight Howard would have been Otis Thorpe. He can only go right, has only one post-move, and can’t figure out what to do when he’s fronted. The Magic are shot.

He’s a lot better than that. A 10-15-5 every night is worth a great deal to a team even if you can’t go to that guy for crucial 4rth quarter possessions. Bill Russell was the same way.

I don’t know man. He rebounds and plays decent post defense. But they keep trying to run the offense through him and it kills them. For the record, I liked Otis Thorpe. My point is that in the current NBA there is a serious dearth of talent and size in the post, making Howard a star when he really doesn’t deserve to be. 10-15-5 is a good support stat line for a third scoring option.

Horace Grant, IMO

I think you can be a star player without being the 1st option on offense. It would benefit Howard and the Magic to no end if he developed his post game but he doesn’t need to in order to be one of the best players in the game.
If he could take on Russell’s habit of blocking shots less forcefully and into position to initiate the fast break that would also inflate his value.
I don’t know if the post is so vacant as you claim. Bosh, Gasol, Duncan, Howard, Amar’e, Boozer, Camby, Nowitzki (sort of) and potentially Yao Ming are all premier big men.

Gasol and Yao are not dominant big men. They are more Rik Smits than Hakeem. Boozer, Bosh, and Camby are good post players, but they are not old school, dominant in the paint centers. Camby is the closest, but he’s never been great. Bosh and Boozer are post-forwards with good mid-range games who can be pushed out of the blocks. Amr’e is an interesting guy and without the microfracture situation he might have gotten there — but now he can’t defend in the post well enough to be in the conversation. Dirk is a 7’2" player whose most consistent shot is a no-jump fadeway from 12 feet.

I just don’t think there is anything in the league like a young Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, or Ewing type of center. And that’s why I think Howard stands out.

“better not focusing on trying to feed Pittman in the low post but in spacing the floor with a Hamilton-Johnson-James frontcourt for offense”

Very few offensive possessions started with Pittman GETTING the ball in the low post. The backcourt of Mason/Balbay was the issue, not the frontcourt personnel – A Pittman, James, Hamilton, Bradley, Brown line-up was not used consistantly, but should have been the lineup from the get-go. You could have proper spacing with Pittman, had not Barnes forcefed Mason/Balbay with Pittman (a useless offensive line-up).

At the time, I always felt Pittman, James, Hamilton, Bradley & Mason should have started the game. Then, have Johnson/Balbay sub for Pittman/Mason to mess with people. Have Brown come in for Hamilton/Bradley or James. If Barnes stuck to that rotation the 2nd half of the season consistantly, we’d have more success.

There have been so few good actual post up/back to the basket players in the last decade and a half that you have to wonder what the hell these big guys are working on in practice (at all levels). In fact other than Shaq, who was more about power than any real post up moves, I can’t even think of one.

You’d think teams would be banging down Olajawon’s and McHale’s doors to work with their big men like teams used to do with Moses Malone.

Also, I saw Wangmene playing at the gym at lunch time and found out he was adopted by the Spurs GM, RC Buford. I hadn’t heard that before.

If your argument is, “currently the league lacks a Center who will crack the top 15 players of all time list and Howard is treated as though he were that guy.” Fair enough, he can still be an extremely effective player.

Also you seriously underrate Gasol and Ming by putting them behind smits. If I were Pau or Yao I would try to hunt you down for that comparison. If Yao were consistently healthy he could contend with Ewing, Shaq, etc.

Rik Smits was pretty good, actually. In his best years, from 93 – 98, he average almost 19 points a night, shot well over 50%, and pulled down 7 boards a night. Gasol averages 19 points a night and 9 rebounds. Yao never plays a whole season, but he admittedly averages more points when he does.

My point is that Smits would DOMINATE if he played now. Seriously. You don’t think of him that way because he played with Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Sabonis, Shaq, Alonzo Mourning, and a whole bunch of other very good to great post-up players.

Moses Malone is a good doppelganger for Howard, but Moses didn’t have to play against an interior team defense like the Celtics.

I would say we have seen the worst we will see from Howard and that only resulted in a 4 point loss. I think this series will still go 7 games.

I don’t agree, I think you underestimate the quality of low-post defense and the impact that has had on the game. And the 90s were a diluted era in terms of overall talent. There was a lack of enough dominant centers to stop the Jordan Bulls, or prevent the aged Jazz from seizing control of the west in the late 90s.

Overall lack of talent in the 90’s Nickey? So you’re saying you could assemble a team right now, that would be better than the Dream Team? Do it.

I wouldn’t call Westbrook a great comparable to Cory Joseph because Joseph is a much better shooter and lacks the elite quickness of Westbrook. In fact, Joseph’s athleticism is often seen as just above average. The comparison is apt in that neither is a true point guard.

In my post, I compared him a bit to DJ Augustin and Deron Williams because of his ability to understand how to keep defenders off-balance by changing speed and direction.

He also compares a bit to J’Covan Brown in his ability to play on or off the ball, but is a much stronger defender than Brown and has a much higher basketball IQ.

Magnus: how else do you explain how the Jazz took over in the late 90s? There were some great players but a lot of teams from expansion. There was nothing like the 80s Celtics or Lakers squads because of the salary cap and talent dispersion.

You could assemble an awesome Mackovic or Akers all-time team but not have as many good actual teams as Mack or Royal have had.

And the last US dream team wasn’t a pack of losers. They didn’t have 3 of the top 5 greatest players of all time (2 of which were out of the league or on their way out) but they were loaded.

Those Jazz teams were good, if not impossible to watch and extremely dirty. Put Jerry Sloan in the most underappreciated coaches of all time category.

I don’t understand this at all: “There was a lack of enough dominant centers to stop the Jordan Bulls…” No, you just weren’t going to stop Jordan no matter what. The 90’s was the greatest era in the history of the sport for the center position. That’s like saying there were no centerfielders roaming the outfield in NYC in the late 50’s.

I agree with almost everything you type, and you’ve got great knowledge on a wide array of topics, but I think you’re off on this one.

I don’t understand this at all: "There was a lack of enough dominant centers to stop the Jordan Bulls…" No, you just weren’t going to stop Jordan no matter what. The 90’s was the greatest era in the history of the sport for the center position. That’s like saying there were no centerfielders roaming the outfield in NYC in the late 50’s.

So, you are calling David Robinson and Patrick Ewing dominant centers?

Yes, I know, calling two HOF’ers who were known for scoring and rebounding ‘dominant’ is ludicrous.

Well I hate to try and stick out this point then but still,

Stockton and Malone were drafted in 1984. By 97 they had been in the league for 13 years together.

And Jordan generally avoided the big centers in the 90s. They drew the Knicks, who almost beat them, lost to the Shaq Magic in their only encounter, and avoided the Hakeem Rockets.
Maybe it’s a misnomer to say there weren’t enough but they didn’t get much of a chance to stop the Jordan Bulls. You have to think that the Longley-centered Bulls might not have dominated so much had they been tested more by a dominant center.

I’ll agree with Toadvine on the point that there aren’t many dominant centers in any era, they are hard to find. The 90s wouldn’t contribute anyone to the top 3 centers of all time and I don’t think they really stand out too far above other eras for low post play.

90s: Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Smits
80s: Kareem, McHale, Moses, Ewing, Olajuwon, Parish, Walton
00s: Duncan, Shaq, Howard, Gasol, Ming

If the 90s were really so Center-dominated than we wouldn’t associate them with Jordan and the Bulls. Hakeem was the only one in the 90s ready to dominate the league and he did. Kareem, Duncan, Moses and Shaq all did it in other decades.

I’m with the General on this one. Hakeem was the most dominant center of the 90’s. Coincidentally his team had a winning record against the Bulls in the regular season.

I loved the Admiral, respected Ewing but neither were capable of leading a team to win it all. They didn’t in the 90’s and wouldn’t have in the 80’s either against Kareem, McHale, Parrish, Walton, Moses Malone, etc. Robinson did get two titles eventually, and I was very glad for him, but we all know that was a direct result of getting the greatest PF ever on his team. 2000’s could probably compete from a center perspective. Shaq in his prime was insane. Duncan is very good at the Center spot as well though best as a PF so we’ll leave him out of the discussion.

Yao and Rik Smits are a pretty good comparison. Yao could accomplish more but woulda shoulda coulda on that that shit. I am very impressed with his FT making ability but that might stem from being a UT bball fan.

I think part of it was how the game was called (no zone defense), but the late 80s and early 90s definitely featured a number of dominant centers with deep skill sets. Ewing wasn’t always dominant, but he was a prime-time star. Robinson was never as big a star as he should have been, but he was probably a top 10 all-time center anyway. Shaq was dominant when he was younger. Hakeem was clearly a dominant center. Mourning was never a dominant center, but he was damn good, plenty good enough to build a championship team around if the right shooters had been put into place.

Bear in mind that with no zone and the isolation type offensive sets a monster low-post guy could be nearly unstoppable. I think even the second-tier centers of the era, like Smits, had to develop post games as the result. Hell, think about Barkley — no center, for sure, but a nearly unstoppable low post force with his patented big ass in the middle of your thigh back down move.

Purely on offensive polish, I think the centers of the 90s were the best ever in the NBA top to bottom. Just like the NBA right now is built for slashers (thanks to the hand-check rule), the NBA then was built for low post players. And the result was a bunch of really good low post play.

My list would look like this

90s: Hakeem, Shaq
80s: Kareem, Moses
00s: Duncan, Shaq

Moses and Duncan could be called Power Forwards and not centers. Kareem may be stretching it because Magic was the best player on the Lakers for most of the 80’s Kareem Era. The problem with Robinson and Ewing is that at no point were they the best center in the league during their careers.

BTW — I mean late 80s to the mid 90s.

The thing with Dwight Howard for me is that his offense could be so much better. I agree with Nickel that his defensive help and okay offense is incredibly valuable, but at this point I expected to see a better offensive game from him. He could still get there though, we forget that Hakeem languished in the league and kind of became a head case before getting it together and absolutely dominating in the mid 90’s.

Not to nit pick, but weren’t Walton’s knees shot by ‘80? McHale was a power forward. Smits was good but doesn’t belong on any list with the word “dominant” in it, and if he does belong then so does Brad Daugherty.

The notion that you have to win a championship to be considered dominant is ridiculous. So LeBron and Melo haven’t been dominant to this point?

“If the 90s were really so Center-dominated than we wouldn’t associate them with Jordan and the Bulls.” The Bulls won 6 championships. The Bulls had Jordan. This transcends everything. Somebody give me a list of the top 10-15 players of the decade, and let’s see which position is most heavily represented.

Nobody’s arguing Hakeem’s greatness here. The Rockets were a bad match-up for the Bulls no doubt, but a won/loss record between teams that play twice yearly means nothing to me.

McHale could play some center, had low post moves that were pretty unstoppable. He was a freak. I’m not arguing about Jordan, I loved watching him play. I just don’t think the 90’s were heads and shoulders above the other decades in terms of Centers. Yeah, you’re right about Walton, got off on my time line there.

Anyhow, if we’re talking best centers ever, they are all pretty well dispersed over the years. 90’s had some great ones for sure.

The General,

At one point Robinson was considered the best player in the league. In fact, I think it was his MVP* year.

Asterisk for two reasons. One, I want to mess with Rocket fan. Two, it should have gone to Hakeem. Just as we all know that Jordan should have won the MVP in ’94 (?) when Barkley won it.

“The 90s wouldn’t contribute anyone to the top 3 centers of all time”

You wouldn’t put Olajuwon in the top 3? I’d put him #1, Russell’s rings and Chamberlain’s/Kareem’s stats be damned.

Or when Malone beat Jordan for it. That was the worst of the “let’s just not give it to Michael again” MVP trophies. Jordan exacted his vengeance though in the playoffs, boy was that satisfying.

Hakeem’s three year stretch from 1992-93 – 1995-96 was one of the most incredibly dominant mini-runs of any player ever, IMO.

Is this the best NBA conversation yet on BC?

Magnus: we could drop Walton if you like. When he was healthy he was elite but that was rare.
McHale and Duncan were mainly PFs but both had dominant low post games that are spoon fed to young big men.

There is some disagreement here just on what dominant means. Let’s just define dominance as: if surrounded by a reasonable cast of pieces this player guarantees title contention. Or, could be the best player on a championship team.

That only leaves us with Hakeem and Shaq for the 90s. Anyone else needs a lot of help.
And top 15 of the 90s in order of greatness according to Simmons’ Pyramid:

Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Isaiah, Pippen, Stockton, Robinson, Iverson, Ewing, Payton, Drexler, Miller, Rodman.

I would quibble some with that list but it’s a solid arguing base. Centers get some solid representation, you’re right, but the iconic teams weren’t primarily dominated by star centers.

Overall, I don’t think that dominant centers impacted the 90s much more than they did other decades. Basketball will always favor the huge tall guy that can control the most efficient shots around the basket.

And I go: Kareem, Russell, Wilt, then Hakeem.

I think you have to look from the mid-80s to the mid 90s to see what I’m talking about. Simmons list is a little off I think — I’d remove Stockton and Rodman, at least. The interesting thing is that with the exception of Isaiah, Stockton, Iverson, and Miller, every other player was pretty good in the low-post. I know you could argue about Drexler, but he could back someone down when he had to.

“There is some disagreement here just on what dominant means. Let’s just define dominance as: if surrounded by a reasonable cast of pieces this player guarantees title contention. Or, could be the best player on a championship team.”

Well then, your list of 90’s centers needs to expand from 2 to 3. You just defined Patrick Ewing. They got to the Finals, which appeases the “title contention” bit, and, obviously he was by far the best player on the team. He ran into Jordan. Somebody shoot me. I’m defending Patrick Ewing? I think his career warrants me to do so.

And yeah, probably the best NBA chat ever on BC. Wilt, Hakeem, Patrick Ewing!, Kareem

Pau Gasol headlines my top 5 ugly centers. Ostertag wasn’t too pretty. Who else?

I’d put Hakeem first just because of the talent of his opposition (WIlt was too damn TALL for his era!). But otherwise, I can’t really disagree.

Ooh, there have been some real beauties. But the contest begins and ends with Gheorge Muresan.

Game. Set. Match, on Muresan. Good call. How about most annoying center of all time to listen to…….Hhhmmm I can’t think of anyone…..anyone at all……

No Russell? And putting anyone over Kareem to me warrants some serious argumentation. He was the all-time most unstoppable scorer and a great rebounder/defender to boot with incredible career longevity and sustained excellence.
Hakeem’s great stretch is comparable to Kareem but Alcindor did it for like 12 seasons.
And I think you could make a top 10 list of centers without mentioning Ewing, although you are right that he has suffered unjustly from Jordan’s existence.

Gheorge Muresan. Have mercy, he might make my eyes bleed in HD today. We’re lucky he played earlier.

“And yeah, probably the best NBA chat ever on BC. Wilt, Hakeem, Patrick Ewing!, Kareem”

Nickel, if you had to guess, what do you think that exclamation point means?

Whenever Pau Gasol is on a big screen and they go to a close up it’s like looking at the sun. I dare you to look at his face for longer than 3 seconds in High Def. Can’t be done. He’s also very good at basketball.

I’m just adding to the Ewing bashing. I understand that you don’t hold him that high.

At one point Robinson was considered the best player in the league. In fact, I think it was his MVP* year.

Remember what happened when they gave Robinson the MVP trophy in front of Hakeem?

Say what you want about Muresan but he’s a valuable addition to Tim Burton’s “Big Fish”. Can Gasol act like that? Doubtful.

Pau Gasol is a Catalonian B. J. Novak.

Good chat Nickel. I only clicked on this because I thought you wrote your long awaited surfing thread. I didn’t know I was going to have the opportunity to sharpen my 90’s NBA chukabocho’s.

General —

There is a 1981 Ford Bronco somewhere in the world that still has Hurricane punch stains and roach burns from the cruise down Richmond at the end of that series. So I kind of remember it.

General, yes I do, hence the asterisk.

If I remember correctly the scoring title came down to the wire and Robinson went haywire for like 71 or something ridiculous. He won the scoring title, and that probably sealed his MVP. Hakeem got screwed, plain and simple.

Well you always offer challenging thoughts Magnus, and the surfing thread is probably a long ways away unless I watch Point Break 10 times this summer. Possible, but not likely.

BJ Novak, good call. If he aged in the face by 10 years and always looked like someone had just beaten him up for lunch money.

Nickel,

We shall soon learn if Gasol can act. He’ll be appearing with Kobe on an episode of Modern Family this Wednesday night. http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/index?id=5198397

Kareem was brilliant in Airplane. Wilt was not so brilliant as the guardian of virgins in a Conan movie. Most ironically funny role ever.

Also, can we all agree that Andre the Giant would have been the best French NBA player of all-time, as well as possibly the greatest NBA center ever, if he’d ever decided to play? Of course he would have been wearing the old school NBA short shorts, which would have been the worst thing ever. So on balance it’s probably good that he never tried.

Well, if Larry Bird had been a center, he could easily win the ugly title. The man was ugly as hammered shit.

Hakeem is the top center because he was brilliant offensively, defensively, and rebounding. I’d put Wilt second, an absolutely amazing athlete who was also great offensively, defensively, and rebounding. Russell was great at rebounding and D but not as great on O. Jabbar was great on O but could be pushed around a bit on D and rebounding unless protected by the refs. I put Jabbar and Russell in a tie for third.

Anyone who thinks Wilt the Stilt wasn’t the best center of all time do me a favor and google most points scored in an NBA game. Look at the top 25. Absurd. Most PPG for a season? Four of the top five, including the only 50+ season and the only two 40+ seasons. Six of the top seven RPG seasons of all time. Selfish? Maybe. If you were clearly the most gifted athlete your sport had ever seen you probably would be selfish too. People are going to bring up the Russell championship thing. Look Russell played for probably the best coach in NBA history and with three other hall of famers. You don’t think Chamberlain could have won surrounded with that kind of talent.

Russell had value on offense for his blocks/rebounds turned fast breaks and for his overal passing which was very solid.
Kareem was very solid defensively and might have been pushed some in the 80s when he was still considered a superstar at 35 and beyond but I wouldn’t call his defense a liability before then.

Wilt Chamberlain benefitted from an era with more shooting and few players who could even begin to withstand his size and athleticism. Russell played with Auerbach and then coached the Celtics himself. Wilt got a dozen coaches fired, played with several HOF players, and was notoriously selfish beyond even what you might describe as rational for someone of such great talent.

He would make passes to specific players he counted on and avoided taking shots in pursuit of the assist title, he would shut down in the 4rth quarter routinely if there was any danger of his streak of never fouling out of games being jeopardized, and he lost to Russell in the playoffs over and over again.

All that said I put him in the top 5 as he still dominated despite being the worst basketball player imaginable trapped inside the best basketball players’ body.
Kareem and Russell were more of a sure thing to build championship teams around.

are we really to believe that Wilt would’ve dominated in the same way today against modern competition? I don’t. I wasn’t there to watch him and I’m too lazy to look up the #‘s, but I’m pretty sure Russell checked him at every opportunity. that tells me that every team in today’s NBA would’ve had somebody to check him and at least cut those gaudy stats in half.

I just don’t buy it.

I imagine he’d probably be a good player in today’s league, maybe even an all-star…but nothing close to the #’s he put up in the era he played.

to whoever commented on Yao’s FT% — it’s not just that we’ve been deprived of good FT shooting at the University, he’s really that good.

I think Howard still has some work to do…but he’s still very young. if he was taking fade away J’s everyone would be bitching about how he needs to get in the post. He needs to spend some time with Hakeem. every young post player should. as mentioned above, when Hakeem finally “arrived,” he did it on both ends. look at the defensive stats, the offensive stats, the quadruple doubles. and he did it during ramadan wihout eating or drinking water.

the “high period” of Hakeem is the best post player the world has ever seen.