Grooming Coordinator Succession: A Systemic Program Issue

There is another option.

Is Shannon willing/able to teach? Maybe it’s not either/or.

Turnover on a staff isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Come to think of it, the velocity of coaches moving on to bigger and better things doesn’t seem to hurt Stoops all that much at OU. It just means your staff is pretty desirable. One of the raps on Greg Davis is that no one seemed to want to hire him away from us.

Tough position to be in. I’d be inclined to try the first approach and hire a “name” to hold recruiting together for the time being but look for the promising position coach to succeed him. I’d be afraid of what the loss of the studs in the 2011 class might do to us down the road. Then again, I don’t like to gamble much.

I’ll say it first. Stoops does a great job of this. Sorry. Did that pinch of salt hurt?

As long as we get good coaches to fill, I ’m not too worried plus Mack is probably done within 5 yrs anyway.

What is the knock on Jerry Gray?

I’m an Austrian guy so I say, liquidate!

This is why Dodds should have chosen Muschamp over Mack.

Leach could build the kind of program that produces quality coaches… Look at Holgorsen.

The Mack Brown coaching tree is more of a telephone pole with fliers stapled to it.

[This would be a 1-3 year hire. We’d be looking for another defensive coordinator soon.]

This, imo, is not really an issue. There are some programs out there that replace their HEAD coaches almost that often. Replacing a coordinator is really not that huge a deal as long as the face of your program (MB) is intact and making the right hires. Yes, it would be nice if they stayed around a little longer but when you’re a top flight program it means that the next stop for your coordinators are head coaching jobs. We could always go after guys that are more likely to stay around longer but then that’s because they’re guys that nobody wants.

Bottom line is that short stints are the cost of doing business in big-time college football.

Orange90: It’s hard to be good at a system if it changes everytime the program has just established recruiting, S&C, and understanding of the previous schemes.

Wandering -
 
I didn’t say it was either/or. Did you miss this:
 
….or we make hires in position coaching with the understanding that they must have upside as potential coordinators.
  
onerio -
 
You missed the entire point of the piece.
 
53 Veer Pass -
 
Congrats on being the first responder who actually read the piece! Yeah, I’m inclined as you are. I just think it’s a macro-issue Mack has to be willing to address at some point.
 
quigley -
 
He does. As does Mike Leach of all freaking people. Saban is fantastic at it, obviously. Boise does a tremendous job too.
 
Monahorns -
 
sigh.
 
holdem -
 
There’s no knock on Jerry Gray that I’m aware of. A lot of former pro coaches hate recruiting and won’t do it. Could be a perceptual issue.
 
Sizzle -
 
Yeah, pretty much.
 
Orange90-
 
Mack Brown identified it as a major issue for the program in 2008 and it’s the reason Muschamp was named HCIW soon thereafter. Yes, programs do replace their coordinators. Where are they replacing them from?
 
Your last two sentences tell me you didn’t understand my piece.
 
Everyone -
 
All of the hot young coaching hires we’ve been talking about got that way with an internal promotion from position coach to DC under a head coach who can teach the game.
 
Holgorsen, Smart, Muschamp…..this is not coincidence.
 
People like to credit Chizik to Brown, but it’s rather clear where he learned his primary craft. Texas was finishing school, where he learned to eat with the right fork.

I’ve been thinking this would be a three year stop gap. Shannon, having been fired from his dream job, will either jump on the next HC offer he gets, or use this time to really sort out why he was not successful at UM and be very selective in where he chooses his next project to be. I’m assuming the latter because there is always the chance he impresses the administration here and lands this gig when Mack is done, the DC pay is VERY good, and for him to have climbed the ladder the way he has suggests he is an introspective guy who understands when he needs to adapt. Then again, he almost took the Kentucky DC job, so there’s that.

But yeah, Mack’s Jeet Kune Do approach is a problem. I don’t know if Harsin solves that on the offensive side. I can’t figure out why Boise guys fail at bigger schools, but they do. I’ve been hoping the extended timeline is more than just managing fan expectations, but also a desire to at least interview guys like Shaw, Chryst, or Bostad. If Shannon is here long enough to bring some of the old Miami guys that should be retiring from the league soon, then there may be a succession strategy on that side of the ball.

Scip, thanks for the last post there. I seriously thought I was losing my mind, or that my comprehension skills had gone to naught, because a majority of the posts didn’t seem to understand the crux of the post’s argument.

Let me see if I can break this down:
 
A head coach without the ability to teach one side of the ball himself had better make sure to hire coordinators with the willingness and ability to mentor and teach and position level coaches that have the mental capacity to be coordinators one day.
 
If you don’t, you will always be throwing together a grab bag of systems and your team will always be in transition to a new system when that coordinator leaves and in-staff succession isn’t a possibility.
 
Having a coach who can do this mentoring himself on one side of the ball is a significant systemic advantage.
 
Does this make sense?

I think the OP also hinted at the idea that the HC needs to take special care, also, to hire position coaches who were capable, and had the determination to learn and improvise in the future, as well.

It’s not going to happen with Mack Brown. You know that.

Mack is/was a recruiter and program-face. He has never been and will never be an X’s and O’s devotee, and as such, he won’t be teaching it down the line like Saban or Snyder.

As you have pointed out, he’s an outcomes guy, not a process guy. He’ll throw hot names at the problem and hope something sticks.

I would like to see what life is like on the other side.

This was one of the major topics of envy I had for USC in the early part of the decade. Carroll seemed to name a new DL or LB’s coach I’d never heard of as his coordinator every season without worry. Rocky Seto? Nick Holt? He let Chow “mentor” Kiffin and Sarkisian before dropping him too. Accomplished it on to an extent on both sides of the ball.

So the end game appears to be finding a head coach to ultimately replace Mack that can identify young coordinator talent and develop from within to establish continuity within the program. Easier said than done but there are plenty of schools doing it. Boise is a perfect example, even if the stakes are lower.

Ironic that our defensive coordinators used the job as a reliable stepping stone while Davis used it to collect a paycheck and count down the years towards retirement. Now that we finally get rid of Davis, we lose the face of this program moving forward just a week later.

Bellmont’s play seems to be talking Major into sticking around as Co-OC until he has enough skins on the wall to take over the reins but it’s a precarious position with unfilled spots at OL, DC, and eventually WR once Kennedy moves on. Even though there’s a short term urgency to fill some slots they better make the right long term moves or the revolving door will keep turning.

All of the guys we’re looking at for DC have higher coaching aspirations and it’s clear the HCIW designation is nothing more than scarlet letters. Jimbo Fisher barely survived it under Bowden and Muschamp resented the ambiguous timeframe forced by Mack’s $5 mil/yr extension. Luckily for Muschamp, a dream job became available and he pounced on it.

Hopefully Dodds still has a good poker game because he’s no longer drawing Aces.

“Reese, Robinson, Akina/MacDuff, Chizik, Muschamp. That’s four coordinators over the last seven years.”

How many did we lose? Gawain, Hector, and Boris—that’s five.

Three, sir.

burntorange –
 
Sorry for confusion.
 
Excellent MP quote.

Major is to me the first obvious attempt at grooming someone within the program. Unfortunately, decision time came ahead of schedule. Besides his lack of experience, are there any other issues that clouds his future as OC? I love the guy from his playing days and he is outwardly hungry and dedicated.

By the way, good topic Scip. It is something that has bugged me about the current version of the program.

I think the issue is also present in all sports at UT, although football is probably the best example given the number of positions coaches where a prospect can be groomed. We seem to stick to the “We’re Texas and can hire anyone we want” mantra when looking at coaches. We have one of our own coaching the Women’s Swimming and Diving, but other than that we don’t seem to hire our own. I am surprised that we did not go for an alumnus when Gustafson was retired.

DonGato, I think the biggest question about Applewhite is regarding his X’s O’s. How much, exactly, is he like Greg Davis? Does he know how to build a running game?

As far as relating to players, recruiting, work ethic, etc. I think we’re all pretty confident there.

I think pretty highly of Applewhite.
 
But there isn’t exactly a Greg Davis coordinator tree. His supposed mentor is held against him.
 
I think what Major did at Rice is proof enough for me that he can create an offense. I’d want him to have a run game coordinator initially though.

excellent article/discussion topic. not to beat a dead horse but it makes the muschamp thing sting even more. he and major (to a much lesser degree) are sabanistas. say what you will about the guy but he’s got a system. one that’s NFL-prep and one that’s wildly successful. pat hill learned at the knee of belicheck and he churns out assts too.

Another reason that we may not favour developing our own is that somewhere along the line you are going to have to roll the dice and give the young pup the keys to the Ferrari, which comes with some uncertainty. Having wondered the desert during the McWilliams/Mackovic years, it feels safer to bring in proven coach or assistant.

So far the only ‘grooming’ trend we practice is hiring defensive coaches from Auburn.

Mack has not cultivated anyone. His coaching tree has oak wilt.

I’ve heard that his job as OC in Alabama was more of a title given Saban’s tight rein. I also remember that around the time we hired him there was a discussion on another horn site that coach Graham had claimed the development Rice’s offense to be his not Applewhite’s.

Anyway, I agree with you that a Co-OC gig would be better served at this point in time. I would feel a bit better if he stayed, though.

I’d say that currently we need an instant hire to stop the bleeding. Once things are stabilized somewhat we can worry about systemic issues. I’m not sure we have the luxury of looking too far down the road. Not unless Deloss and Mack are smarter and cooler under fire than they appear.

Homesick Alien said what I was thinking in response to your piece. This may be a reflection of your Meyers-Briggs observation that Mack is an outcome rather than process guy. Not sure that allows Mack to address this. This is a valid concern.

Don Gato’s mention of the “We’re Texas (and we can just throw money at any problem)” issue also hits on something. It is one of the hidden curses of that kind of resource bank. As we have seen, it can enable laziness.

Scip: It wasn’t just finishing school for Chizik, it was also finishing school for Muschamp. Should we send Jeremy Foley the bill?

Mack Brown as Henry Higgins, teaching vulgar and uncouth young coordinators how to behave around the press and major donors…

I understand a lot of people want Applewhite to be a co-OC, but what does Applewhite want?

Let’s say the co-OC position is not good enough for Applewhite. Would you rather offer him the OC position now at Texas or see him leave with Muschamp?

The underlying assumption is that we should be losing consistency, but until last year, we were remarkably consistent.

Scipio,

I generally agree with your post, but to a certain degree I think we’re all past the point of this systemic issue mattering. Has it been a huge problem? Absolutely, and it’s easy to attribute a huge part of that problem to Mack not having any kind of strengths from an X’s and O’s perspective. And additionally, the continual chain jerking of Major Applewhite, as well as the Mack Brown Coaching Pylon, is illustrative that the notion of how to create your own continuity is a complete mystery to ole’ Mack. But at this point, I simply don’t think this is a problem anymore, simply because of a timing perspective. Perhaps it’s wishful thinking, or perhaps it’s just my current inability to admit how the Muschamp departure has changed the face of our program and general timetables, but I simply don’t think Mack Brown is going to be around long enough in the future for us to worry about continuity. I’m just assuming that he’s going to leave, and at some point we’re going to have to set the dumpster completely on fire and start from scratch. To be honest, I’m looking forward to that day in a number of ways, particularly if things pan out the way I expect moving forward. The damage has been done, this problem has cut our achilles tendons repeatedly. Look for it as an important issue when addressing the needs of our next head coach. I just don’t think it can hurt us anymore right now.

Re: grooming successors.

I see an analogy here to recruiting, ‘building through the draft’, etc. vs. the concept of building through JUCOs and free agents. I personally am a big fan of the former, as I believe it builds programatic and cultural unity in terms of what you’re trying to do. But I’m a systems & process guy, so long-term results through solid fundamentals resonates with me.

What’s ironic is that Mack, who is clearly not process/systems guy, projects such a strong public emphasis on the importance of recruiting of players, yet he clearly fails to see how the same concepts can benefit him as a head coach and program manager.

Scip — would you rather have an offensive or defensive head coach?

I’ve always preferred defense. But am changing. Am starting to value the innovative offensive systems more. Also, seems easier to plug n play defensive coaches.

Randy Shannon will be a head coach again.

At Texas.

This was one of the major topics of envy I had for USC in the early part of the decade. Carroll seemed to name a new DL or LB’s coach I’d never heard of as his coordinator every season without worry. Rocky Seto? Nick Holt? He let Chow "mentor" Kiffin and Sarkisian before dropping him too. Accomplished it on to an extent on both sides of the ball."

It’s easier to maintain your dominance if your willing to buy your players a house.

The underlying assumption is that we should be losing consistency, but until last year, we were remarkably consistent.
 
Our defensive performances have actually been wildly inconsistent year to year.

Austrians, Keynesians – mixing economics with football, I love it! BTW, I’m an Austrian guy myself – your right were screwed in the long run!

IMO we are taking the biggest risk of all of the possibilities right now letting ol’ Mack burnish his “legacy”. There have been air pockets in this program the whole time. Now, we find ourselves in a smoking pile of rubble with absolutely no guarantees.

I relate this situation to having a pretty damn hot girlfriend (MNC, all of those vaunted 10 win seasons, 2 conference championships in 13 years) that likes to binge drink from time to time and occasionally mug down with some stranger (blowout losses to OU, scoring 14, 3, 0 and 13 points during that 5 year run of futility in our biggest rivalry game, two inexplicable letdowns against inferior aggy teams directly after the MNC, losses at home against the Piggies, blowout loss at home against K-State). I mean, you keep her around because she’s hot and the good times can be really good here and there. That’s understandable.

But, at this point, she’s just had a train run on her on your hunting buddy’s pool table and someone videotaped it and put it on the internet (I’m talking about the 5 – 7 debacle). She just absolutely has to go now or your self-respect and the respect that others have for you is completely destroyed.

Does this make any sense?

F.M. said: “Does this make any sense?”

It does to me..

OU just promoted internally to man their OC position to replace Wilson by naming Heupel and Norvell co-OC.

Heupel is younger than Major IIRC. Major’s last year was 2001. Heupel QB’d the 2002 OU championship team. If history is any guide, Heupel will plug right in and OU will keep contending for Big 12 – 2 hardware. Don’t know too much about this Norvell cat, but would love to get the 411 from those who do.

All of those 10 win seasons feel so hollow now. Do we have trophies in the case for winning 10 games all of those years?

Does anyone think that this affects the calculus WRT Major’s possibilities?

We’re so totally up shit creek regardless. There are no safe plays when you put yourself in a 5 – 7 type hole. Risk abounds. I believe the karma in an Applewhite ascension is about as good a play as we can make right now given our circumstances and the recruiting implications.

Identical ages, FM. Heupel went JUCO, remember?

Right on, no redshirt year for Heupel. It was North Dakota something or other if memory serves.

Scip, if it’s Austin, I’m blaming you. Obviously Mack is reading your stuff.