The Fab Five

Which one fouled (not called) BJ Tyler at the end of the 2nd round game?

the timeout thing doesn’t have anything to do w webber not being in it. his charity is named timeout.

at that point bj’s jumpshot had taken on a sideways spin – started in the last game or two of the regular season and continued in the conference tournament. one of the weirder things I have seen.

Good write-up. I watched the documentary with interest. It was a big walk down memory lane for me too.
 
My thoughts -
 
I’m glad you idolized college basketball’s version of the Buffalo Bills. When Scott Norwood called the time out against UNC, I was crushed too. Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha!
 
Their social significance is overstated, even as trend setters. They were influential, but Michael Jordan they were not. Baggy shorts pre-dated them in the NBA and college basketball. UNLV defined the we-gonna-ball-like-ballaz space before they did. They just happened to do it at a real university that was tapped into the East Coast media and got the credit with the 5 Freshmen hook.
 
Is Ice Cube the white documentarian who went to boarding school’s new go-to for President Of All Black People? And does Maya Angelou know she has been replaced?
 
They absolutely did redefine how freshman were viewed and treated. Starting freshman, or multiple freshman, was no longer a big deal post Fab 5 when it had previously been considered a taboo.
 
Same with going pro early. Somehow, after them, it was just assumed good players were gone after Year 2 or 3. The phenomenon pre-dated them, but they just seemed to cement it.
 
I saw Ray Jackson play several times at LBJ and he was a completely dominant player. That he was the least talented of the Fab 5 was a shocking realization of just how good they were and what big-time college athletics looked like beyond the gyms in Austin, Texas.
 
I disliked Jalen Rose in college and absolutely love him now. He is brutally honest and opinionated with real self-knowledge. He views himself with very little bullshit – the anti Chris Webber. You could have a talk with Jalen Rose about anything and he would have something interesting to say. Love the guy.
 
No Chris Webber in the documentary was like doing a piece on the ‘85 Bears without any members of the defense.
 
The perceptions of the Fab 5 as “thugs” by some in the media and amongst fans at the time is as hilarious, troubling, and as misguided as the Fab 5 believing Grant Hill was an Uncle Tom for attending Duke. People who think they were thugs have never been exposed to actual thugs. The Fab 5 were brash, occasionally buffoonish, young guys with a lot of energy and confidence. In other words: college guys. But their notion (at the time) that Grant Hill must conform to a certain way of carrying himself in order to be authentically black is destructive stuff.
 
The gaps in culture between the Fab 5 and the media wasn’t purely racial. It was also cultural and generational. Every white kid in America was listening to NWA and EPMD. It was the soundtrack of my high school life. It’s the job of teenagers to shock their elders. It’s the job of elders to be shocked. White kids said “In your face, bitch” after baskets too.
 
I was a child of busing, public schools, athletics, and integration. I grew up with black kids, black teammates, black friends. It was normal. It was familiar. If you’re a 45 year old sportswriter in 1992, it’s unlikely you had that same ease of interaction. So when Jalen Rose, wearing baggy shorts, with earrings, glares at the camera after a dunk and does the cabbage patch, I think, “Good dunk. He better get back on defense.” A different generation thinks they’re seeing the apocalypse.

Bill Walton has every right to say the things he did. He and his school are the kings of college basketball. From a team perspection it comparing a symphony to what ever rap bs you reference.
Plus his coach was John Wooden who experienced 1960’s culture which I would say trumps any little racial injustices the Fab Fade documentary portrayed. In fact racial tensions of the 60’s say hi.

CW? Chocker. Fab 5? Much ado over not much.
Not even up to the cheating standards of UNLV and without the results.

Loved Knights comments Saturday. Yeah Rose speaks his mind.

My favorite part was Jimmy King referencing himself as a product of the inner city. Plano is hard as it gets.

Was it just me or was this awfully familiar to the Runnin’ Rebels of UNLV piece that HBO did the night before?

Sure, there were some obvious differences (a group of freshman), but the main issues stay the same. Both were pieces about teams with personalities the likes of which college basketball hadn’t seen and both were surrounded by controversy. Each had great seasons and though UNLV won one title, they never played for the title everyone thought they’d win. Only difference is that UNLV did it all a year before Michigan did and HBO aired their special a day before ESPN did.

Entertaining overall but could have shaved about 30 min off it, and I agree with Scipio that the film overplayed their socio-cultural significance; this wasn’t Texas Western over Kentucky moment.

Rap (’member when it was just called rap?) and hip-hop were a prominent part of the mainstream cultural backdrop back when the Fab 5 were in junior high or before, and they were hardly the first predominantly black team to have success (UNLV predated them, as did the Phi Slamma Jamma Cougars and many others).

From $1M to $10M. I’d bet that was the first time that a short spike of that magnitude had occurred and you could pin point the exact cause of said spike.

Michael Jordan in his Carolina Blue shorts says Hi!

I was relieved to know that we’ve engaged Jimmy King as one of the pioneers to solve our alternative energy crisis.

I just remember disliking Michigan during that time. I was glad Duke and UNC won, and not because I thought the Fab 5 were thugs. I thought it was really cool that 2 of them were Texans getting all that media attention.

I was a big fan of Mashburn for some reason and therefore Kentucky even though soon afterward I realized how dirty that school is. But I was totally rooting for the Mashburn Kentucky team.

lots of it was overplayed. they all paid for it to be made. it was as hype driven as their college careers were. still pretty fun to watch. their cultural relevance wasn’t anymore than Jordan or Larry Johnson before them or shaq or the Charlotte hornets of the 90s after them. either way I liked it.

people seem confused about webber not showing in it. if he’s owned the timeout thing and the lawsuit is over I think it might just boil down to him being a self important douche. 90% of it ended up wing about him anyway. and for fucks sake can you guys get a mobile version yet I’ve been typing blind for the blind fr the past 5 sentences

Thought a lot of it was overblown, cant stand when they do that. But it was good. Webber comes off as a douche bag pity party

“I’m glad you idolized college basketball’s version of the Buffalo Bills. When Scott Norwood called the time out against UNC, I was crushed too. Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha!”

Scip, I was a fan of the Houston Oilers around that time. Maybe you remember some of those seasons and the way they ended. I would have killed every last Barker to have what the Buffalo Bills had instead of my fate. The fact that I showed up on campus in Austin at the same time as Mack Brown and Rick Barnes and once Augie started turning things around on the diamond was just god paying me back.

“Michael Jordan in his Carolina Blue shorts says Hi!”

srr50, obviously the Jordan effect on Carolina was way before my time. But I am under the impression that UNC merchandise was a little popular before MJ or maybe even that the spike in UNC merchandise didn’t occur until a few years after MJ was with the Bulls. Was it really a 1000% increase as soon as Jordan stepped on the UNC campus? I didn’t think Jordan was that much of an instant sensation in college. I’m just curious.

“Bill Walton has every right to say the things he did. He and his school are the kings of college basketball.”

He could have said the things he did about every single college team since besides Florida 06-07 and Arkansas 94-95. Nobody else went to back to back NC games. The reality is that Walton was a negative jackass back then. I actually like him way more now but back then, around the same time, he was reviled in Houston for his over the top criticism of Hakeem Olajuwon during the NBC broadcasts. It was seriously Merrill Hoge-esque. It wasn’t until Olajuwon finished his tea bagging of David Robinson during the 2nd championship run that Walton finally relented and pulled a complete 180 on Dream. It might have just been schtick by Walton but he hasn’t been the overly critical commentator since then, to the point where I sometimes wonder if he learned a lesson throughout all of the Olajuwon stuff.

I didn’t catch the UNLV HBO special but I could see their story following a similar story arc.

What exactly did Knight say about the Fab 5? I am pretty sure his Indiana team led by Calbert Cheaney swept the Fab 5 their sophomore year. If Alan Henderson doesn’t get hurt, there could have easily have been a rematch in the Finals.

I get that Jordan was more culturally relevant than the Fab 5, but when all the high schools in Houston went to the baggy shorts in 92-93 era, it was the Fab 5 that all the old white dads were cussing, not UNLV. The Rebs might have worn longer shorts beforehand but nobody noticed.

ded, what was Plano East like 20 years ago? Probably a lot less inner city than even now.

Juwan Howard thinking they were going on the Cosby show was hilarious as well.

dick, it wasn’t just Carolina Jordan that did it. it was NBA Jordan. pretty sure we were all wearing long shorts before them because of him. that they were 2 inches longer…really? the chuck d calling them 5 Ali basketball players or whatever was the stupidest thing I ever heard. they were more pop culture than groundbreaking in most ways. unlv did it a couple years earlier and would have smashed them.

Was it really a 1000% increase as soon as Jordan stepped on the UNC campus?

No, not when he stepped on campus, but there was a massive spike in a very short period of time for UNC when Jordan mania hit. They went from selling at a moderate rate to being a top-selling brand in college licensing for decades. UNC dominated the top of the Collegiate Licensing Sales until another transcendent athlete showed up — Vince Young.

Since 2006 Burnt Orange became the best selling overall brand.

The spike with the Fab Five was the biggest single year spike until Texas after the National Championship. Michigan BTW was the perfect program to take advantage of the Fab Five. The Wolverines were the first University to trademark their logo and sell everything from jerseys to toilet seat covers with the Michigan logo.

Good write-up and some good comments too. My two cents:

Any documentary that features Mitch Albom’s giant head immediately becomes 8% less awesome.

I agree the cultural significance was overblown, and I think that they missed the boat by overplaying that angle. They did have a real cultural impact — they totally captivated the attention and imagination of (especially white) teenage hoop-playing boys. UNLV was first, and we all watched them play as much as we could. But the Fab Five were different. We wanted to be like them. They were cool but somehow accessible. That influence was real, and Scipio described the real and potential impacts of that influence better than I could. It seemed the makers sacrificed that angle and went for the big “Muhammed Ali” payoff.

I had always wondered if Webber was told to call timeout by someone in the stands (maybe even a Carolina fan?) or on the bench, and they did a great job with that part of the drama.

The internal inconsistency about Webber taking cash was a head scratcher. Mitch Albom bragged about hanging out with Webber during his 2 years at Michigan more than anyone in the whole wide world, and said Webber was constantly broke and asking for money; meanwhile Webber was taking hundreds of thousands of dollars from Ed Martin. Maybe he was just trying to fleece Albom. That would make me happy.

Steve, I remember being surprised that UNC was the #1 that UT surpassed in 2006. All they have is basketball and they sucked from 1999 to 2005. Jordan’s effect was truly amazing.

mattdubya, Chuck D and Ice Cube were on there because they were available, their opinions ranged from irrelevant to absurd (the Ali comment). I also think there was a big difference in style between Jordan and the Fab 5. But were the Fab 5 guys influenced by Jordan? Yes.

“Any documentary that features Mitch Albom’s giant head immediately becomes 8% less awesome.”

That was very distracting.

Webber is/was a very interesting guy. He’s charismatic, yet painfully awkward in uncomfortable situations. He wanted to be street, but he was a private school kid. I also think he was ridiculously competitive, which leads to a lot of misunderstanding of the guy. It reminds me of Vince in some ways. And that trait will lead him to never apologize for what he did, which was probably somewhere in between taking nothing and the $280k.

@ dedfisher …..jimmy king is actually from gary indiana; which is a very tough inner city area he just happened to move to plano when his parents took jobs at at&T.

The Ticket today mentioned that Jalen Rose did the documentary, which credits himself with the baggy shorts movement. They shot this idea down pretty easily and I tend to agree that going with the “Ali” mentality hurt an otherwise brilliant piece

Yeah, the “5 basketball-playing Muhammad Ali’s comment” was ridiculous and disappointing, since Chuck’s usually sharper than that.

I thought Webber came off really bad in that clip they showed where he turned on Ed Martin. I’ve always seen him as being similar to Kobe Bryant personality-wise (kind of shady and phony), though Kobe’s obviously the better player, particularly at crunchtime.

Always liked JRose. I agree that he’s great as an analyst.

Pretty amazing that Juwan Howard’s still in the NBA, even if he’s basically a benchwarmer now.

I’m pretty sure Rose credited MJ with starting the “baggy shorts” movement, though Rose may be taking credit for starting it (or at least popularizing it) among college players.

Speaking of MJ, pretty much everything I’ve seen/read/watched has stated/shown that, while he was certainly known when he was at UNC, he was nowhere near as popular/influential as he would become later on. Just to use another ACC player from the time as an example, I think Len Bias got as much attention as MJ did.

Rose credited himself with bringing the baggy shorts to the Fab Five, which he did. Howard specifically said they wanted to be more like Jordan with the longer shorts. Nobody said they started the whole longer shorts deal.

The clip with Webber turning on Martin was bad, especially after they showed what Jalen said about it afterwards.

Howard/Rose/Webber made about $430M in the NBA, with each making over $100M. Pretty incredible.

I seem to remember Todd Day wearing shorts for Arkansas that looked long enough to be freaking gaucho’s and Oliver Miller’s shorts consisted of enough fabric to make three piece suits for the entire Texas coaching staff.

Walton might be bitter, but he is exactly right and no one and I mean no one was more counter culture when he was in college than Walton.

The Fab 5 were hyped as the greatest recruiting class ever and yet never won a title Lew Alcinder’s freshman team beat the crap out the UCLA varsity so badly that Wooden started scrimmaging them against each other for a period of time. One was regarded by national media to be unique and the other went 88-2 and won 3 titles.

It maybe should be noted that the interview clip with Walton was from Roy Firestone’s (later Cris Myers) old “Up Close” show and wasn’t a recent one. It’s possible that Walton’s thoughts on the Fab 5 have changed since then.

“I seem to remember Todd Day wearing shorts for Arkansas that looked long enough to be freaking gaucho’s and Oliver Miller’s shorts consisted of enough fabric to make three piece suits for the entire Texas coaching staff.”

I think the point is that nobody remembers them doing that. Looking at old pictures of those guys, they weren’t wearing long shorts but considering the comparison to the nut huggers that were common back then, I could see why you would think that. Plus Oliver Miller could have done that with his tighty whities.

Nobody was comparing the Fab 5 to UCLA’s dynasty in the 60s/70s. Walton wasn’t saying that my UCLA teams were better than these Michigan teams. In that case, he would have been right and he could have been talking about any team ever. He was criticizing their brashness and their not playing the game the “right” way, like Coach Wooden would have wanted to. Walton was more Johnny Miller back then for you golf fans. And yes, that footage was from during the Fab 5 sophomore year.

There was no damn way the shorts Lee Mayberry was wearing would ever, ever be confused with nut huggers. Duke maybe, but not the Hawgs. That is the very problem I have with the Fab 5 today that I didn’t have then. The longer they are removed from when they played the more hype, but in the end they never won a national title.

As pointed out by others they weren’t the first to wear the baggy shirts, weren’t to play the brash in your face style, and in the end playered their style and came up short. At least when ESPN focused on Miami the Canes won titles.

dedfischer said: March 14th, 2011 at 6:04 am
My favorite part was Jimmy King referencing himself as a product of the inner city. Plano is hard as it gets.
-———
I loved the documentary, but there was a lot of bullshit.
I coughed my Stella on the coffee table with King’s inner city delusion. I watched Jimmy King play at PESH. He was an excellent player, but my school – Garland Lakeview – never played against so many rich white kids as we did when we played King’s PESH team; until we played Highland Park later that season.
Also Chris Webber went to Country Day, safely tucked in the suburbs right off of Detroit’s analogue to FM 1960 in Houston or the George Bush Tollway in Dallas.

It’s already been discussed that Jimmy King was from Gary, Indiana which is 85% african american and mostly middle class or below. He passes the BC inner city test.

It’s always a major talking point with Webber about his desire to portray himself as a tough street kid to some degree but he was held back by the fact that he was a well spoken private school kid from the burbs.

“but in the end they never won a national title.”

Again, I don’t get this point. What they accomplished on the court was still worthy of high praise. On most nights in 2007, Kevin Durant was doing at Texas was the lead story on SportsCenter, not Florida’s quest for a 2nd back to back National Title. What he was doing was pretty awesome, what Florida accomplished was incredible but it didn’t capture the imagination.

Also, this wasn’t your watered down college basketball days. That era was probably the height of competitiveness in college basketball history. Hell, college basketball had only become College Basketball within the previous 5-10 years.

The height of college basketball? In what way? The game has been great longer than there has been ESPN.

Quality of play? Competitiveness? Or because it was shown on the endless highlight loop? Trouble is that it has been seen before. There have been other squads that got up and down the floor and dunked on people. There have been other teams with the brashness.

In what way did they elevate the game that hadn’t been done before?

The one team that NEVER gets credit for being ahead of the style curve is the 1988-89 Fighting’ Illini.

Bardo/Liberty/Gill/Anderson/Battle were interchangeable 6-5 to 6-8 athletes with the full-on baggy short look and the court attitude (also made it to the ‘89 final four). They took MJ’s look to the entire starting five (all of whom were Jordan built-a-likes, if not play-a-likes) and the Fab Five completely “borrowed” it.

That’s where the look gained cool cred…Michigan a year later was simply the tipping point.

I love that Illini team.
 
Basically 5 6-6 guys who were hard not to pull for on the court. Yeah, the Fab 5 was walking some cultural ground that had already been established.

I can’t understand why everyone is so pleased to point out that the Fab Five guys weren’t the first to do this or that.

Pretty sure the Fab Five acknolwedge that Illinois team and UNLV in the book, and they certainly acknowledged MJ in the documentary. They don’t claim to have invented baggy shorts or trash talk.

But the Fab Five was a phenomenon unlike anything seen since, and people rightly attribute much of the stylistic evolution of basketball to their popularity. If those five guys want to take some personal pride in the ubiquity of baggy shorts and black socks, who can argue with them?

And I agree with dick – who gives a shit if they didn’t win a title? The documentary obviously wasn’t meant to be some celebration of unmatched on-court success. Congraulations to UCLA for winning a lot a long time ago. HBO has already done that film.

Bill Walton sounded like many of the old white guys at the time who felt like the holy game of basketball was being threatened by the five kids in Ann Arbor.

Bobby Time -
 
I think the backlash against the documentary was it’s self-aggrandizement and overstatement of cultural impact.
 
There is nothing new under the sun. You believe they invented a style of play heretofore never seen in college basketball that revolutionized the game. Older generations like to point out that Phi Slamma Jamma and UNLV are shaking their heads and laughing.
 
I fully credit them with the notion that you can start multiple freshmen and win, however. That was a revolution.
 
Mostly, I liked the documentary because it was fun. I just let out a couple of deep breaths when Chuck D started talking about them like they were Rosa Parks.

I didn’t write that I believe they invented anything. But I do think it is fair if people attribute certain elements of the stylistic progression of the game to their popularity. Jimi Hendrix stole from Curtis Mayfield, but you don’t catch many musicians naming Curtis as inspiration.

I don’t have of an opinion on the credit they’ve received one way or the other, but the exuberance and passion they played with was fun to watch even to the casual fan. Back then I was much more than the casual fan, now I just watch UT (until Thursday, anyway).

Why I don’t think they were street, they played hard, both in effort and attitude. The fact that they came in together created an “us against the world” aura that played into that.

I hated it when Webber bailed after year two. Lots of good basketball was lost due to early departures. Along with Webber staying for one more, I would have loved to see Stack and ’Sheed come back for another run.

Pretty sure Jalen Rose was the first to jam ‘Star Spangled Banner’ on a Fender.

As someone who loves and adores Chuck D deeply, I have to say…

He’s a volume shooter.

The documentary scored a 2.1 rating, the highest rating by a doc on ESPN ever.

Davey, appreciate the comments. Yes, I believe that was the height of competitiveness of college basketball. In terms of the game being more popular and modernized (national TV, 64 team tourney, a 3pt line, all were about 10 years old at the time) and being played by more people (thanks to popularity of Magic/Jordan/Bird, etc), everyone was getting bigger, stronger and faster and kids were still hanging around until they were Junior or Seniors. Hell, an athletic monster like Shaq even stayed until his Jr year. The odds of that happening in even 1995 were precisely zero %. That all ended with Webber. I don’t think it was because of him, the dominos just coincidentally began to fall with him leaving after his sophomore year. Kevin Garnett exacerbated the problem shortly thereafter by leaving HS early and finding pretty immediate success. All of a sudden, even mediocre HS kids and college freshman were bailing on the college game early. I’m with Magnus that it bothered me quite a bit and even soured my love of the college game quite a bit until Gabe Muoneke and TJ Ford came into my life.

If the Ice Cube and Chuck D part were the most disappointing parts to everyone, I totally get that. I spent the entire time during their interviews explaining to my wife who they were and why their opinions were pertinent.

As far as the whole “OMG, the Fab Five produced it! It’s self serving!”, the documentary was marketed all along as the story of the Fab 5 from the perspective of the Fab 5 themselves (minus one). I feel like a lot of the reviews out there are expressing surprise that the Fab 5 (-1) were the producers as if it wasn’t publicized.

I’m also glad I know why Stephen Bardo is on my TV screen all the time and what his significance is.

I’ve never been able to love college hoops as much since the Garnett/Kobe/etc. run.

You know the NCAA would do evil things they haven’t already been doing forever if they could keep top hoops talent in school 3 years.

Dumb question…

Was this actually one of the 30 for 30 series?

I never saw it billed as such. It looks so much like one, I know everyone assumes it was, but can anyone confirm?

I don’t believe it was. It was just a doc.

It was billed as “from the people who brought you 30 for 30” but it wasn’t one of the 30 documentaries to celebrate ESPN’s 30th anniversary. The Steve Bartman documentary that’s coming soon won’t be a “30 for 30” doc either.

Here is a link that shows all of the official 30 for 30s:

http://proxy.espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank?versionId=1&listId=893

The Fab 5 doc was watched by more people than any of the 30 for 30 docs. It wasn’t the best one, imo. That would be the OJ one, titled “June 17th, 1994”. Either that or The U or the Two Escobars.

Good article from Kev’s brother from another mother on the Fab 5 doc:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/14820366/the-fab-five-polarized-and-revolutionized

I didn’t write that I believe they invented anything. But I do think it is fair if people attribute certain elements of the stylistic progression of the game to their popularity. Pretty sure Jalen Rose was the first to jam ‘Star Spangled Banner’ on a Fender.