David Ash: Red Light on the Redshirt Talk

Me thinks that Ash and McCoy both will play. Mack said something the other day to the effect of that they were going to play back-ups simply just to get them in game reps. He cited that as a major problem over the past few years, that they needed to correct. My hope is the Ash becomes the true #2. If McCoy transfers, then so be it. Hopefully he goes to another program that can use the talent he does have.

Hey JS – I’m doubling down on your sources…DESPITE what is probably wag-the-dog level info coming out of Mack Brown’s mouth. You definitely cannot take much of what is being said at these pressers at face value.

Most, if not all of that stuff, is going to be replayed on LHN (Go Fios btw!). I get the feeling that I’m listening to rehearsed PR-level info coming out…Almost to a player, the info sounds the same, vanilla level comments.

What do you think?

I’m only going on your usually excellent information (thank you very much), but I don’t know that I buy the part of your analysis about listing McCoy as the number 2 only to keep him from transferring. If we (you) can ascertain that the division of the snaps in practice and installation of plays for Ash belies the listed depth chart, why couldn’t McCoy and family conclude the same thing?

I also believe that Mack is honest with players. As of today, McCoy is the number 2 player with no guarantees that the chart remains the same from day to day. McCoy, in my opinion, is either staying because he feels he is still in the hunt for securing the number 2 spot and moving up to number 1 or he is content to stay at Texas and take his chances over an entire career.

If Gilbert plays even decently well, there is no way Mack unseats him for his senior year.

Gilbert has shown he could be a starter.
McCoy has shown he could be a back-up.
Ash has shown he could either be the present or the future.
The staff has shown they wants to keep their options open.

Ash definitely plays in 2011. McCoy probably transfers in 2012.

No matter who starts by year-end 2011, Gilbert does not transfer… because one year at an unfamiliar, lesser program is simply not a good formula for playing Sundays. He will need to go big or go home.

But Ash may be the 2012 starter anyway. When all is said and done, Mack is more committed to Texas and his own career/legacy than coddling a problematic senior QB.

If Gilbert has earned the starting job, it would not be too unusual to redshirt Ash with the understanding that the redshirt would be burned if Gilbert went down during the season or ended up being a bust. Why burn a year of eligibility to get a few snaps in blow outs? Nothing would keep Ash from getting second string work a practice during the season. This was the case at OU in 2004. White was the starter and Grady was the backup. Thompson was redshirted but got the number 2 reps at practice and everyone knew he, not Grady, would be the starter if White was hurt again. If Ash is competitive now, he might be the head and shoulders choice for starter next year. He is projected to start in two years (please note I am using the term "projected"). Why waste the year of eligibility?

The NC loss to ‘Bama notwithstanding, I do not think it is realistic to get the backup meaningful work during the season unless you do what Missouri did with Chase "booger" Daniel and Brad Smith. Smith was, without question, a tremendous college quarterback and Daniel, as a freshman, was not going to beat him out of the starting job. Missouri did, however, game plan to get Daniel a set amount of work in each game when he was a freshman, and stuck to that schedule pretty religiously. He played in 10 games as a true freshman. If I were going to burn Ash’s redshirt, I would like it to be in connection with a commitment to get him meaningful work.

UTEP could use McCoy. Can they have him? He would definitely be their starter right away. Anyhu, gotta echo the sentiment that Ash is quite special and certainly seems to have a very bright future at UT and beyond. That said, I’m guessing the coaches are going to precede very cautiously and methodically with him. I do believe that Ash will end up being what coaches and fans thought GG was going to be, although GG will most likely do a lot better than last year, but might never live up to the 5 Star, hopefully though he proves me and others wrong.

Maybe Ash provides a better proxy for Rice’s QB1 (McHargue) and thus the staff is killing 3 birds with one stone

1) Give defense practice against a more mobile QB
2) Give Ash some reps
3) Convince Case that the only reason Ash is getting more reps is because it benefits our defense.

Just speculation here.

I don’t see how we can trust the whole season to just Gilbert and McCoy. What if one gets hurt? Ash would have to lose the shirt and we would have him coming in without experience.

I’d rather McCoy didn’t take snaps so that he could use a redshirt year and transfer.

If Gilbert makes it through 2011 as the starter, then he is the starter in 2012. Anyone who has watched Mack for 13 years knows this beyond any doubt. Of course if Mack goes 5-7 and resigns, all bets are off.

It could be that Mack is telling the truth about the depth chart – it changes every day and what you see on Monday is not necessarily what you get on Saturday. If McCoy had a couple of bad practices maybe he got demoted.

My gut feel is that you are right however. I believe noise of possible transfer got to Mack, through Brad “I’m, gonna make money off my sons” McCoy or whatever, and ol’ thin-skinned Mack is retaliating.

I probably should have put this in the article, but I’m juggling a bunch of stuff right now, but my guys tell me Ash thoroughly outplayed McCoy every step of the way this August, practice in and practice out. Again, if you thought Gilbert was the starter, why waste time and reps on a kid who wasn’t going to see game action?

I don’t see why playing Ash a few series in each game, especially in a designed package, is a waste. If he doesn’t play this year all the coaches have is practice data moving ahead. If you want to prep him to be a starter either in 2012 or 2013 then you have to put him in the line of fire. Even if he is only going to be the primary back up next year, I would rather know what we have now rather than wait to find out after an injury to GG.

Playing him now also increases morale, in that the coaches show they aren’t holding back anything for the sake of winning now. Do these kids want to hear they might win the conference next year or in 2013? I think they want to hear that the coaches are going to try anything and everything to win games now. Our recruiting has set us up with great QB depth for awhile, so if sending Ash out there helps us win games this year then we should go for it.

“If Gilbert has earned the starting job, it would not be too unusual to redshirt Ash with the understanding that the redshirt would be burned if Gilbert went down during the season or ended up being a bust. Why burn a year of eligibility to get a few snaps in blow outs?”

If the plan was to just play Ash a few snaps in blowouts, I’d agree with you.

Ryan,
   If that were the case Ash would be practicing with the scout team offense, not the 1’s as Jesus is describing.

Redshirting is totally over rated.

All these rosy scenario’s work, if Gilbert doesn’t transfer. If Ash takes the starting reigns, and Gilbert and McCoy transfer, you suddenly have Brewer as your back up next year, and have to hope Ash doesn’t get hurt and Brewer can take a redshirt to create some separation between him and Ash, so Brewer doesn’t pull a Jevan Snead and decide he doesn’t want to wait 3 years to start.

It’s critical that one of Gilbert and McCoy hang around for one more year to ensure you have three scholarship QB’s on roster once Brewer arrives. We’ve heard that at least two Dad’s are in Mack’s ear, so it’s easy to imagine a situation where people get butthurt and transfer and then suddenly you’ve got a screaming QB depth problem.

Basically, you need to find Matt Nordgren here, and right now, none of the players is real interested in the “Backup QB who never plays, gets tons of coed ass” role.

by the way, meant to say “proceed”, not “precede”…

In regards to McCoy, I think the coaches feel bad how they mismanaged him last year. That, plus the fact that he’s McCoy the Younger certainly has to play in the minds of Mack and co to at least have him as backup. Almost like Mack feels he owes it to him and the McCoy’s. Plus, they are probably curious how he would play in an actual game.

nordbergeron – do you have any confidence that there is a plan to do anything more meaningful with Ash this season?

somebody give a list of past reads to j ging so he can get up to speed.

regarding the rest of you. i can’t believe we are still talking about the starting qb like he’s the only dude who counts. haven’t you been reading l-hornscott’s articles where he talks about harsin’s use of packages at boise? don’t you realize that multiple qbs are going to see significant work and that each has a package tailored to his skills?

this isn’t 1982, fellers. hey, i’m the old dude here. how could i be the one that gets it?

put this in red letters in your thinking cap: it doesn’t matter who starts at qb because all who can make the sticks move are going to see significant play, and their workload is going to increase as they warrant.

Colt invented and freelanced his way through GD’s system with enough physical talent and technique to make magic.

Case now works in a system that requires far less invention and freelancing because of its superior design. He’s smart enough to make the reads, but does not have the physical tools or technique of his brother. If his jersey didn’t say McCoy on it, he wouldn’t even be here. How many jump balls throw off the back foot do people need to see to get that he isn’t a viable option for us?

Folks we are not the only program this happens to. Having a younger more talented QB is not unique. LSU had a their QB go down. Guess who replace him? A redshirt senior. No more coddeling Mack, play the best.

Case doesn’t have a future in Football. He will not play in the NFL. He just doesn’t have the tools. Most college athletes don’t so this isn’t a knock on the guy. If I was Daddy McCoy, I’d advise him to stay at Texas, learn the game, get a quality education and coach the game after graduating from Texas.

If everyone is somebody then nobody is anybody.

I think it depends.

Ash can still take reps for development purposes and be redshirted. They can always elect to pull his shirt Reggie McNeal style if Gilbert either struggles or there is an injury.

I think Gilbert is the man but the staff thinks Ash is plan B, not McCoy.

yeh, I am just having trouble convincing myself that those past reads are a better indicator than the past.

i would prefer to get ash going this year, then brewer will come in redshirt, then start his red soph year, and then tyrone swoopes come in and start the same cycle again

“Mack is more committed to Texas and his own career/legacy than coddling a problematic senior QB”

I wouldn’t bet the farm on that premise.

I think we are often too certain about the bright futures of promising high school players. To count on a procession of Ash, Brewer, Swoopes is no more wise than either counting on GG to come in and lead us to the promised or counting GG out after last year’s abysmal season. Sometimes we act as though the only variable is the current starting QB while all the future QBs are certainties.

promised land

RomaVicta ftw…McCoy is here pretty much for this reason.

We seem to take two QBs every couple of classes, I am guessing in hopes of creating some depth. The second guy is usually not highly sought after, but sometimes you need program players. Unfortunately Kinne and Harris didn’t hang around. So I hope McCoy is a willing program player and won’t transfer, but its probably hard to see yourself as that guy when your older brother is starting in the NFL.

McCoy may not be a guy that can lead this team 10+ wins in a season as the starter, but he is a guy that could come in when the starter is injured and give us a chance against all but the best teams.

Here’s what I think…McCoy is NOT going to transfer. We’ve seen the measure of his talent and development and unless he’s another Carson Palmer, he is not NFL-talented and PT in another program is not going to get him there either.

But, he can get a damn fine education from Texas as opposed to a meh-quality education from, say, ACU, Texas State, or UTSA. He is good enough to run the team when the game has been decided or the situation dictates (I don’t even want to go there about what situations would dictate…). But unless he and his family feels he has a legitimate shot at the next level and doesn’t feel his skills are developing with the current coaching staff, then it’s foolish for him to bolt.

What do you think?

At some point, aren’t we showing our hand to our opponents?

Whatever happens, I just hope the staff is upfront with the guys about it all. With their futures on the line, I think they deserve it. Knowing Mack’s penchant for “doing the right thing”, I’m sure that’s the case.

@Gman: No, I don’t trust the McCoy’s to know that Case doesn’t have the tools Colt does. Aside from typical parental rose-colored glasses you can never account for, we have word from JS or Scip mentioned here few days ago that Mack has pushed babysitting duties for two QB dads with differing opinions about playing time onto Harsin. I doubt either of those is Mr. Ash.

couple of things to remember regarding case.

1) like colt, he came in light. colt remade himself. don’t forget that case has a better s&c guy than colt had.

2) case’s highest and best use might be — like it was for major — learn coaching from the best sources he can find. case and colt got just about the best start they could get from their hs mentor, and harsinwhite is probably the best college source around. certainly one of, anyway.

case is in a great place whether his body responds or not, and if his body doesn’t work for him it won’t matter where he goes.

Hell, UTEP would take QB John Paul Floyd at this point. Floyd would be interested in playing at UTEP, just a mile away from the Juarez(one of the most dangerous cities in the world), Mexico border? Just make sure you play with a bullet proof vest brother.

My explanation for the line-up: Mack has set it up so McCoy gets plenty field time against Rice: if we’re up relatively big he mops up; if it’s tight, it likely means the running game flopped and GG’s tossed a couple of picks. If, despite his shortcomings, Case is a gamer like his brother, here’s his chance to shine. If he doesn’t play well, Mack can look the Clan McCoy directly in their eyes and say he gave him a chance (against Rice no less), and still didn’t see what he needed to see. Ash has been getting a bunch of reps so he’s ready to go, in a back-up role, against BYU. If GG and Case play well against Rice and thus BYU (and stay healthy) Ash likely redshirts. No way he plays against Rice unless things have gone terribly, terribly wrong.

Now I know why the LHN isn’t up and running. When no one sees the game, they will have no idea who actually played in it. The Ash secret remains intact! Brilliant!

Mccoy should have never been offered a scholarship in the first place.

No matter how well Gilbert does, you don’t want to RS David Ash. He needs quality snaps if he’s the back up. Why? Potential injury to GG. Injury can happen in game 1, 3 or 8. We don’t want to put him in with no game experience and we don’t want Case as the starter if Ash is better. Also, GG could break his leg next August, and there you are. If GG does well, you can have a situation this year and next like the Chris Leak/Tim Tebow situation when UF beat tOSU for the MNC.

Ash needs meaningful game experience and he needs it this year.

One other thought. The second dad in Mack’s ear may have been Dr. Wood. From what I know of Gilbert’s dad, it seems out of character for him to have been doing that. Also, he really had no reason to be in anyone’s ear if you think about it.

- Ash is the back-up for the next two years, if Gilbert does well
- Ash is the starter for the next two years if Gilbert does poorly
- Connor Brewer red shirts next year
- Connor Brewer back-up for two years under Ash
- Connor Brewer’s to win his Junior and Senior year

Thought we recruited Case as a backup anyways. Wasn’t his offer more or less a token one?

Observation 1: Mack opining in his presser about Ash redshirting is not for Mrs. Gilbert and McCoy’s consumption. They are going to know whatever their sons know.

Observation 2: Mack is “scared to death” of having QB’s on the bench who can’t play. Case was almost certainly worse last year than he is now, and so simply wasn’t ready to take the field even after 5 interceptions.

Observation 3: Mack could care less if the fans and the media are confused. He hasn’t yet figured out that there are no secrets and that everything is done in the public eye in the 21st Century. Hence his statement, “The fans who were upset with me in the past for not playing the young ones will probably be upset with me for playing so many of them now.” He still sees blogs as the silly, uninformed rantings that you see in the comments on NFL team internet sites, and doesn’t understand how fan opinions are now linked to knowledgeable commentary like Scipio’s, Longhorn Scott’s, Nickel Rover’s, etc. on this site and others

Speculation: The pecking order in the depth chart is what Mack wants to see because that would confer the least risk of McCoy transferring immediately, but he is covering his ass by all the “if we played today,” qualifications. He’s banking on the odds that Gilbert performs extremely well against Rice and he doesn’t “need” Ash, and therefore can leave McCoy as the backup. However, should Gilbert be injured or not play well, they have Ash and his packages well-prepared. It’s costing them reps with Gilbert, but it’s a successful risk management strategy.

Question: Are we really solid enough offensively to manage against risk rather than manage for maximum success (they are not necessarily the same thing).

“- Connor Brewer’s to win his Junior and Senior year”

or Swoopes

I agree with Roma. As for the snaps Ash got during fall camp, it was probably to make a determination one way or the other. How do you decide to shirt the kid or not if you do not know what you have. The only thing it tells me is that they were not so happy with what they had, and they wanted a good look at Ash. Now, the reports about the snaps Ash is getting during game week are completely different. That makes it clear to me they have decided he is not going to shirt and they were working on his “package”.

Longhorn Fanatico: Jaurez is one of if not the most dangerous city in the world, but luckily the miners play on the US side of the border. El Paso ironically is rated as one of the safest cities in the US.

Don’t transfer because you’re number 3! That’s what Aggies do…

Well it sounds like Ash might play by your report. If thats the case, Texas needs to recruit a 2nd QB next year. Im far from sold on the Arizona Qb, the competition he has played against is very suspect. He got clobbered the first game of the season this year playing a team from Nevada that might be as good as a 5A Texas team. I could be off base on that because Colt McCoy came from Jim Ned, a 2a school, His heart was big. I would take a Texas QB if one is available. The last out of state QB was Chris Simms. They may think with Ash the future is now.

To Hey Man, Brad McCoy is a good guy. Get to know someone before you run em down.

Jerry, you said, “Jaurez is one of if not the most dangerous city in the world, but luckily the miners play on the US side of the border. El Paso ironically is rated as one of the safest cities in the US.”

Indeed, it is one of the most dangerous. And, yes, the miner do play on the US side of the border. But tell that to the sociology staff that had their building hit with large bullets that came from Juarez. Or, tell that to the Court House staff who got a couple of windows shot by bullets that came from Juarez. Or, tell that to the recent incident where Mexican Federales(soldiers) came across into the U.S. and got into a shootout with some American hunters. Or, tell that to the bus full of American kids who while heading home after school witnessed two hit men(Juarez cartel) literally drag a guy out of his home into a vehicle and taken across the border and found dead by the river with his hands cut off. So, yes, the Miners play on the US side just less than a mile from the border, which incidentally has 10,000 people cross back and forth daily. And, yes, El Paso was ranked as one of America’s safest cities, but amongst smaller populated cities, not large cities.

Just heard from a very reliable source that Garrett Gilbert’s “short leash” is just 2 years long, after that, he’s OUTTA HERE!

If Case McCoy insists on going elsewhere, why on earth would we care if he transfers? Given ample opportunity, he hasn’t shown he can play.

And if he transfers solely because he wants to start, where would he go? I’m not at all sure he could win the starting job at ACU.

I don’t want to come off as too harsh on Case. I don’t personally dislike the kid; he just isn’t a very good ball player.

If our #2 guy gets more than 35 snaps all year, then the starter got hurt, or is a bust.

If GG busts, then he will be #2 and get only a few more snaps in the year.

I say ’shirt Ash unless GG busts, then burn the ’shirt.

There’s no “experience” in getting a few snaps at the end of the game.

If David Ash can contribute now, by running a specialized package of plays and/or by getting sufficient game reps to prepare for 2012 and beyond, then he should play each and every game this year. Given how critical this year is to (rebuilding) the Texas program and the fact that the team is now down to 3 QBs, a redshirt year for David makes no sense unless he is truly inferior to Case (in which case Case needs to get more snaps) and/or suffers a major injury prior to the kickoff of the Rice game. It makes no sense to worry about preserving Ash’s eligibility in 2015 (if he redshirts), because the focus needs to be on winning now and developing players to be serious contenders next season.

GG* starter
Ash* packages
McCoy* clean up in blow outs
keeps dad off Mack’s ass
We’re not gonna have a repeat of 2009

Big Buddy sure hopes so & so does his friend Bobcat Sue!

JET said: September 2nd, 2011 at 10:52 pm
GG* starter
Ash* packages
McCoy* clean up in blow outs
keeps dad off Mack’s ass
We’re not gonna have a repeat of 2009

This. Also, if what we read here about Ash is true, JS is proven right, once more…

Longhorn Fanatico – No way McCoy plays in front of Javia Hall

Expect that is the reason McCoy hasn’t transferred, no head coach sees him being able to compete for the starting roll.

Former Texas player Johnny Walker got this blast off today at 247.com.

“Everyone knows David Ash won the open competition. There is way more pressure on GG. He has everything to lose and nothing to gain. I would hate to be in his shoes. He doesn’t have the support of the fans nor his teammates.”

Walker also said in that thread that Texas is an 11 win team this year with Ash at QB. With GG not so much.

Jesus right again on Ash and redshirting.
 
Called it in the Spring, stuck to his guns, and even told you exactly the package of plays you’d see Ash used in.

“On freshman QB David Ash: I don’t know how many plays David got tonight. He got two or three, but we do have a package for David. [Sophomore QB] Case [McCoy] is the second team quarterback and Garrett knows that. But we feel like there are some things that David can do with his feet, with movement, and his ability to run and throw that it will make it tough on teams to prepare for.”

Just like you said, Jesus.

Ash playing suprised me. That said, now that the shirt is off, watch his role expand week by week. If GG improves along side him, so much the better.

JS (and the Asset) called it on Ash and his package plays weeks ago. Well done, gents, well done.

Okay, but now for a new question… how much and how fast are the coaches going to expand this package? Will David get the green light to throw downfield, or will they limit him to short/sideways passes (a la Case)?

Hey this is a good looking website, is wordpress? Forgive me for the foolish question but if so, what theme is? Thanks!