Texas-Missouri Football Post-Mortem: Defense/Special Teams

Thanks Scip, great writeup. Hilarious description of Klein, I must say that I am in awe of his toughness against OSU and A&M. He rushed the ball something like 35 times against the Ags and still passed well. Klein is one tough mamba jamba hombre and has some Chuck Norris type DNA in him. I wonder how the heck Manny will scheme to contain him.

I think our run defense slows the Wildcats down a lot.

Whether we win the game or not is going to depend on whether or not Brown or Bergeron play. If either are ready to go without the other, we need Monroe to get more touches.

Can’t have either of them with nearly 30 rushes in a game this year again.

Extremely happy with overall D play. Some mistakes still happen, but that, too, is football.
But they can’t win the game by themselves. They are not that type of unit. We need the offense to get healthy in a hurry.

I have visions of Snyder in a dark room with a crystal ball. Hate those guys.

Our D is growing up nicely. If we can patch over the loss of Randall next year I think we’re dominant.

My kingdom for an average passing game.

No LHN/BBall thread tonight?

I thought our D played great for a 3rd week in a row. You can’t really blame them for more than the first 7 points scored.

UT-06 -
 
I understand that perspective, but you don’t get to sulk after a bad call. Gotta play on.

FYI: Sideline reporter said Fozzy has an ACL and MCL tear during the Longhorn basketball broadcast.

True. I didn’t mean it that way. You still have to play though that.

And as I type that, LHN streams that fozzy’s ACL and MCL are torn. Not surprised, but sucks to see it confirmed.

6-6 is very possible w/o fozzy given the offenses remaining on the schedule.

Bad News: Gandolf the purple comes to town

Good News: Gideon has 3 more regular season games left in his career at Texas

Any word on Robinson’s status going forward?

UT 82 BU 46 F

J. Brown: 28P 8A Ties or sets career highs in both
J. Lewis: 18P 4R First game

The defense is getting really good at making game time adjustments. They pretty much played how i expected, right down to the 17 points. My over optimism for the Longhorn offense right up to kickoff when i figured out B&B would not hit the field had lead me to think 17 points was doable because i thought we would run clock with our run game. The defense played beyond my expectations without the offense giving them any help.

Scip, nice write up. We commented frequently on Acho from the stands. He was all over the field. And, here in the Smith household we have Victory Sundays where we watch the DVR’d Tiger win from Saturday. My 7 yo daughter said after Vacarro’s big hit on De’Vion Moore, “that number 4 likes to hit hard.” So I’ve heard….

I said last week and I think it was confirmed on Saturday that the Longhorns fielded the best defense the Tigers were going to see this year. That’s why I’m so impressed with James Franklin – 18 for 26 with 3 receiver drops – and averaged 7.2 yards per attempt. A bit off his season average, but against UT I was very happy with it. Also, happy to see Kendial Lawrence do a serviceable job – I didn’t have much faith in him gaining positive yards. Tigers averaged just 3.4 yards/carry, but that was enough especially considering the fourth quarter consisted mostly of “don’t fumble” plays.

Great recap. Probably won’t get many comments because you just about covered it all. The D probably would have given up more with Josey still in, less wind, and a closer game. On the other hand, they did all of the above and held them to 17 with a nonexistent offense. Too familiar a story but that is changing. We might have troubles the rest of the season if our injuries don’t improve, but we couldn’t do last year what we just did the last couple of games. There is hope.

I’ve shaken my head a few times this season about low helmet to helmet tackles that the tackler could not avoid due to late adjustments from the offensive player. Not just Texas in games. I understand the danger. However, it is unfair to penalize the defensive player if he makes a low tackle, and the ball carrier makes a last minute adjustment leading to a head to head collision. There is very little that can be done. The penalty is so harsh that it actually gives the offensive player an incentive to get his head in the way of tackles (not suggesting that this has taken place or will but in theory it could). The NCAA need to look at this again, the rule needs refinement not all helmet to helmet tackles should be 15yd penalties, most are accidents.

Since I’m done posting breaking news for the moment…

Nice summary, Scipio. Addressed much of the issues I noticed in the game thread. Defense played very well overall. Acho and Vaccaro stood out to me. Missouri hasn’t been giving up a lot of sacks either, so those were nice to see. Diaz coached well and his unit fought to the end. Love that depiction of Snyder! The silo is probably where he stores his collection of discontinued shoes as well.

http://lubbockonline.com/stories/101505/col_101505010.shtml

Colin Klein reminds me of Hunter Pence. Everything he does looks awkward as hell, but the production speaks for itself.

Defense continued to play hard against Missouri, even as it became apparent the cause was lost. Jordan Hicks not doing much for me. Perhaps expectations were too high.

Saw Collin Klein play last week and this week. No doubt that boy eats broken glass and pisses jamba juice. Will be quite a challenge putting the clamps on him next week.

Have no complaints about the Horns D, they gutted it out. Hopefully, we will have an offense worthy of them in the near future, health and injury allowing.

Great Post Mortem.

Klein looked beat to hell at the beginning of the game against the Ags and he got 35 more carries so here’s hoping it takes him a week to heal.

Christian Scott is the black Gideon, no racist.

Our D will be filthy next year as long as Kenny and Okafor come back.

I found the spearing call on Vaccaro surprising not just b/c I thought it was a great form tackle, but also b/c I thought Big 12 refs would give the benefit of the doubt to teams remaining in the conference, not to those giving the conference the middle finger.

Just saw Jackson Jeffcoat on the LHN. When asked about the performance of the defensehe responded along the lines of: Our job is to prevent the other team from scoring more than our offense. We didn’t do our job. When asked about his own performance, he responded “we lost.”

Love the way this guy is coming on as the season progresses.

Nice write up.

Your points about Edmond getting serious snaps are well taken. Colin Klein is a bad mother f+cker. Violent.

The problem with the targetting rule, as written now, is that a ball carrier can dip his helmet and get a flag thrown on the other guy. The word is out.

Under the pretext of player safety, we are encouraging cheating.

This shit has got to stop.

I thought the D played excellent minus the run by Lawrence and the big pass to Moe. The front 7 was nails all game and the goalline stand after the blocked punt was very impressive.

One question though. We have two safeties who appear to have duplicative limitations (of which they have in abundance), and yet we start them both. What happened to developing the younger players and playing with an eye toward the future?

I hear all the time about how the younger guys just need more reps against D1 competition to be really good next year. If I we are going to start safeties (specifically Gideon) who consistently take bad angles and give up big plays, I’d much rather have it be a young ’un who can learn from their mistakes and help us down the road.

Scott and Gideon are by far the biggest liabilities on D and every week it is glaringly obvious on at least 2 or 3 big plays.

a ball carrier can dip his helmet and get a flag thrown on the other guy.

This was exactly my point earlier wrt that call, because it’s exactly what the runner did, and the replay showed that clearly. Besides that. it looked like it was the FRONT of KennyV’s helmet (top of facemask), not the CROWN, that made contact, and it didn’t appear to be the first contact (i.e., not “leading”).

I gather the rules don’t allow this call to be reviewed, but if that’s true, then fuck the rules completely. I never recalled seeing the spot of a ball reviewed before that one in the 2009 CCG that gave Nebby a first down.

I’m still hoping that our coaches have started whatever process is necessary to try to get the XII refs to be directed to call these hits correctly, with review if necessary. As I understand it, the current direction is that they are to call the foul even if they’re not certain… so why would it not be reviewable?

Maybe we just need to have 30 or 40 refs on the field, one for each player, two or three on each sideline and endline… all with helmet cams… and helmet cams on all players… oh, and multiple accelerometers on all players, so they can be sidelined after a certain strength of contact – or, wait, that also allows a new rule making “too-hard” tackles be a foul. And millimeter-level GPS receivers on the balls (foot, not player) so we can be certain when a ball goes over a line… well, and players’ shoes and gloves, too, for the same reason.

Maybe we should just change the game completely, so that the players come out and warm up, then run and jump, throw and kick, and smack tackling dummies around, then all that info is fed into a simulation, and the winner is announced. Then everyone – coaches, players, trainers, even fans – gets either a First Place or a Second Place trophy (Made in China) and everyone goes home happy.

Man, I wish FX/FOX had gotten Mike Pereirra on (they have in previous FX broadcasts) to discuss that targeting call. I missed some of the broadcast after that, so maybe they did.

It just seems that Vaccaro’s tackle was textbook when NOT to call targeting. Face up, facemask makes first contact against shoulderpad (then helmet once ballcarrier ducked his head), etc. Pop that in every summer for the ref instructional video to highlight this as an example of when targeting shouldn’t be called.

Nevertheless — have to regroup after that. The long run was inexcusable. Let’s finally beat KSU.

Nevertheless — have to regroup after that. The long run was inexcusable.

Regroup, indeed. I still have not gotten an answer, or found one, as to whether the shit call was or was not reviewable. Either way, I would have called a T-O for two reasons – one, to regroup, as you mentioned, and two, to demand a review and chew the living shit out of the refs whether the review was allowed or not. Manage the fucking game, Mack and Manny.

It’s definitely not reviewable, just like PI contact or roughing the passer isn’t reviewable. The refs could convene and pick up the flag, but no replay on penalties like that.

A-Tex: I think they did get Pereira in. I wasn’t at full tilt with my volume, but it sounds like Pereira agreed that the hit was illegal by the letter of the law, if not the spirit of it. Didn’t look like the hit was malicious (unlike the almost sack lick that Vaccaro put on Franklin a few plays later), just unfortunate due to the speed of the play.

It’s definitely not reviewable, just like PI contact or roughing the passer isn’t reviewable. The refs could convene and pick up the flag, but no replay on penalties like that.

So it IS “reviewable”, but not by watching a replay – that is, it can be reviewed by convention.

There is an allowed review in the case of “egregious error” – I finally found the NC2A replay stuff at hxxp://www.eaifo2.org/files_pdf/2011_football_rules_FC11.pdf – and I would sure as hell call a T-O for both the regrouping and to lobby the Ref to ask the replay official to declare that error and reverse the call. All they can do is say no, but you get the bug in their ears, and you use the T-O appropriately anyway.

It’s a shitty call, and it needs to stop happening – to us or anyone else. I have no problem with one of our guys getting smacked like that without a penalty being called.

Fair, I agree with all of this. The personal foul was BS, but that is where the lame world of American football is headed. We’ve had our share of lame personal fouls tcalled against us his year, including a couple in the desert against ASU, so I don’t feel much sympathy. Those calls happen for and against everyone in college football. Suck it up, for chrissakes. Act like the biggest, coolest school on the planet, not a bunch of whining “the refs stole the game from us” pansies (directed at the commentors).

I was suprised we were able to run with Lawrence against your front 7 at all. I think it is really tough to take much away from the second half regarding UT’s defense or MU’s offense. For once, finally, Pinkel and Yost managed a game to win instead of trying out shiny baubles when up 2 scores. We clearly went conservative, as mentioned by Pinkel immediately after the game. Without your top 22 running backs and with your stable of second division MAC quarterbacks, not much reason to throw the ball around on our part.

Gene and Phenomenal,

Is the Mizzou turf as bad as it seemed? Two experienced running backs suffering cataclysmic knee injuries on the same field seems an unlikely coincidence.

Can we get a clip or gif of Kenny’s hit? It was the play/call of the game in my opinion.

Gene Claude try reading the comments for complete comprehension before making stupid-ass statements. No body here said the refs stole the game. Most every one who commented said that the D was responsible to suck it up and make the next play. Most importantly, the majority of the comments are on the broader issue of this kind of penalty and how if is f-ing up the football, not how it cost us the game (which, to be clear it didn’t)

In fairness to Gene, we didn’t lose the game because of the penalty. We lost the game because we have no WRs, we were on our 4th string RB, both QBs were awful, and the right side of our OL cannot pass block at all. Oh, also, no pass catching TE.

I like how Gene Claude takes a balanced discussion of a personal foul call (that we hated) and maps it into the commentors are blaming the outcome of the game on it.

Of course Pinkel said he went conservative. That’s how you rationalize scoring 3 pts in the second half when 3 possessions start in the other teams half of the field. I still can’t believe Mizzou took a knee 3 times when they had first and goal at the 1.

it sounds like Pereira agreed that the hit was illegal by the letter of the law

Pereira is full of shit, but I submit that is exactly what you would expect – namely, that he would support his own guy’s call.

I’ll assume that the “letter of the law” in this case is Article 4, not Article 3 since it is obvious that the crown of the helmet was not in contact. Article 4 says “No player shall target and initiate contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, elbow or shoulder.”

Looking at the replay, I see two obvious things about the play that put it outside the “letter of the law”. One, Vaccaro did not “target and initiate” the contact to the head or neck area, the runner ducked his head and was clearly the “initiator” of the contact; and two, the opponent was not defenseless.

Egregious error by the official, imo.

“Is the Mizzou turf as bad as it seemed? "

On the radio broadcast, Craig Way commented on how bad it was and said that the last time we played there in 2009 Muschamp told the Mizzou coaches/admin that it was terrible and needed to be replaced.

Pereira was stretching to try and explain why the refs called the flag at all, not really agreeing with the call. It didn’t cost us the game, just a touchdown and 40 yards of rush defense stats. We weren’t scoring more than 5 pts after Fozzy went down no matter how long we played.

toad, nobody complained about the turf until after this game and no knees or similar injuries had occurred this season before this game. It’s just field turf – the same stuff you see all over college football. Speaking of bad turf, anyone see Stanford’s field? Wow.

Vaccaro’s hit on Franklin may have been the best play of the day for the UT defense:

Mizzou Offense Before Franklin’s Stinger: 37 plays, 306 yards (8.3 per play), 14 points
Mizzou Offense After Franklin’s Stinger: 34 plays, 48 yards (1.4), 3 points (on a minus-1-yard drive)

In a collision between Steve Edmond and Colin Klein, my money is on Edmond. It will be awesome to have Edmond patrolling the middle vs KSU.

Very large MLBs (or interior LBs in a 3-4) have an advantage as run stoppers and can deal head on and neutralize an OL block while still retaining the ability to go left or right as necessary. That is a big deal. Hope Manny exploits that capability.

Gretsky said that he knew where the puck was going to go. The reason than an MLB like Edmond seems instinctual is that he can process the play dynamics in realtime and figure out how the play will (likely) unfold before it actually happens. Don’t know how smart Edmond is but MLB is a position where intelligence and preparation make an enormous difference. Probably not a good idea to make Edmond do any man pass D (i.e. play some zone pass D to protect Edmond).

Phenom,

I guess it was just awful luck. Terrible for both of those kids — two horrendous, likely career ending injuries. It was a pretty physical game, actually, although fozzy’s injury was a non-contact one, and those can be the very worst.

Kafka,

I have watched Klein play a couple of times and he is a horse, but everytime he gets up he looks pained. It reminds me a bit of Stephen McGee running the option for A&M, although Klein is bigger and stronger.

I see no way Klein makes it through a game against our defense. He is going to take a lot of very big shots.

When Bill Snyder took over Kansas State a year ago they had less than 50 scholarship players. They are going to roll into Austin with an offense 10 times as good as ours and will bitch slap us all over the field with walk on’s and JUCO players.

Anyone here still think our head coach is earning his 5M per year?

I will say this — Klein throws a better ball than any QB we have had on campus the last two years!

One big advantage that natural grass has over artificial turf is that when a runner is making an extreme cut on grass, the grass is likely to fail, the runner will then slip and fall rather than continue exerting tremendous stress on the joints of the runner’s plant leg. So the grass failing to hold the foot during a sharp cut is like a safety valve.

With artificial turf, the “grass” can be made arbitrarily strong and does not fail, keeping the foot from slipping, thus not permitting the extreme forces on the leg during a sharp cut to be dissipated. Maybe modern artificial turf has a solution for that.

Toadvine,

Those hits add up like body shots in boxing. It is normal that after a QB takes a big hit, he hands off on a run on the next play rather than passing or running himself. I think you will see a lot of Klein handing off after big hits.

Haven’t read the comments so sorry if it’s been discussed but 2 game management things we could have done to help ourselves:

1) call timeout before the 1st quarter ended and force Missouri to punt into the wind. In a game where field position was going to be critical that could have helped us out some. Instead Missouri runs the clock and flips field position.

2) call timeout after the shitty call on Vaccaro. The guys’ heads weren’t in it the next play. Timeout would have allowed the coaches the get them to re-focus.

call timeout after the shitty call on Vaccaro.

The usual poor clock management we’ve become used to, sadly.

Besides letting Manny settle the D down, that also gives A.N. “Mack” Brown a chance to jaw at the refs about the call, which replays clearly show was not a foul. While replay/review rules generally do not allow such penalties to be reviewed, there is a loophole about “egregious errors” being reviewable. “Egregious” is a two-bit (five dollar, with inflation) word that simply means “outstandingly bad”. A simple look at the replay shows that it was, in fact, egregious.

Def agree with T-O at the quarter – that was quite a wind, and well worth a T-O to make them kick into it.

I’m just sick of losing.

And I’m sick to think we might have to endure another year of it.

“We lost the game because we have no WRs, we were on our 4th string RB, both QBs were awful, and the right side of our OL cannot pass block at all. Oh, also, no pass catching TE.”

Tell me what you really thought the Horns issues were last Saturday Toadvine.

I agree with you completely and as worrisome as it is that Fozzy is gone how sure are we that Malcom and Joe will be able to finish out the year and take the pressure off the quarterbacks?

Look, I might be an old crotchety pain in the butt and yes the coaches could have lightened the load for their two freshmen backs, but I seem to recall Ced carrying the ball a ton of carries and not coming up lame.

I used to believe GBIC stood for Gibabit Interface Converter. I stand corrected.

Regarding targeting: Someone pointed this out on another thread: The rule states that you can’t use the crown of the helmet. If in question, it’s a penalty.

The answer is simple: don’t dip your head before delivering a blow. That’s now how DKR would teach to tackle anyways. It’s fun to use the helmet to maximize damage after a blow but it’s not worth it anymore.

If you don’t dip your helmet you won’t get penalized on bang-bang plays and you can still go high and deliver painful hits.

Fans that are worried about the future should consider our likely depth chart in 2013 on defense:
Senior Jeffcoat, Senior Whaley, 2nd year starter DJ, DE?
Senior Hicks, 2nd year starter Edmond, 2nd year starter Cobbs
3rd year starter Diggs, Turner/whomever (byndom will leave early), 2nd year starter thompson, senior Phillips.

We’re talking about one of the most talented AND experienced defenses we have ever seen at Texas. Do the same experiment on offense:
LT: 3rd year starter LG: ? C: 3rd year starter RG: 3rd year starter RT: 3rd year starter
FB: Bergeron? TB: 3rd year starter Brown and 2nd year Gray WR: Senior Davis, 3rd year starter Shipley. QB: 3rd year Ash or 2nd year Brewer.

It’s going to be hard not to blow away everyone in 2013, even if Case is QB. See: 2009 or 2011 Bama, or 2011 LSU.

Yeah Davey, the result of that game really laid bare exactly how good and important our freshmen RBs really are to this team.

Turf toe is a lousy injury — it can take a long time to shake. Same thing with a hamstring. the problem with both is that they limit power and explosiveness. And are easily reinjured.

God bless you, Nickel. That was like a big shot of morphine.

nobody complained about the turf until after this game and no knees or similar injuries had occurred this season before this game. It’s just field turf – the same stuff you see all over college football.

If it’s fine then why is it going to be replaced?

The rule states that you can’t use the crown of the helmet.

There are two rules. Article 3 is the “crown” rule. The newer one, Article 4, says you can’t “target and initiate contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with helmet, shoulder, elbow, or forearm”. The latter appears to be what was called, although I admit I was so bent out of shape that I missed the Referee’s pronouncement.

There clearly was no “crown” contact, so I assume it was Article 4. But even that one fails to meet the rule, as there was no target and initiate (the runner lowered his head and caused the contact, and without being able to find the “description” (as it is referred) of a “defenseless player”, I’d argue that the runner was anything but defenseless.

Furthermore, as someone else pointed out, we (he, and certainly I) have not yet seen a penalty called on a ball carrier (or a blocker, for that matter) for putting his head down and ramming a defender with the crown, or hitting a defender in the head or neck area with various prohibited body parts.

Sucks. Take away the helmets and make ’em wear skirts.

And if it’s “just field turf—the same you see all over college football,” then how can Stanford’s be worse than others?

Turf toe is a lousy injury — it can take a long time to shake.

This didn’t by any chance happen on one of the plays where he threw his shoe, did it???

TexLong: I guess my point is this: If you are about to deliver a big hit that everyone can see developing, if you lower your head you fantastically increase the chances of a foul. So don’t do it.

I absolutely agree about offensive players using their helmets as weapons. If the goal is actually to reduce TBI’s then offensive players should be punished for lowering their heads or defense plays at an incredible disadvantage. I wonder if it would be possible to build safe helmets that aren’t so hard and large.

LT: 3rd year starter LG: ? C: 3rd year starter RG: 3rd year starter RT: 3rd year starter

I think our best case scenario is to land JUCO OT Donald HAwkins (currently committed to OSU). He’d start right away at RT, allowing us to move Hopkins inside to replace Snow, where he’s better suited anyway. That should be a pretty solid line in 2012 and everyone would most likely return in 2013.

That team definitely looks to compare favorably in terms of overall talent to our top-5 2008 and 2009 teams, with the obvious exception that those teams had a star at quarterback. So yeah, I’m drinking the kool-aid a bit.

Oh yeah, that whole “runs the offense” position . . .

But otherwise, I agree.

if you lower your head

NickelRover, I’m with you there, but I don’t think KennyV did. I’ve not rewatched the game or any clips of the hit, but at the time – including replays – I thought that he went in head up and the contact, such as it was, had his facemask hitting the runner. Definitely an egregious error by the ref. They should at least allow – or require – replays on such calls, particularly if there’s no injury (although, granted, that would just mean the runners would start taking dives like Italian soccer players, and some coach would hire Greg Louganis to consult (not Paterno)).

I wonder if it would be possible to build safe helmets that aren’t so hard and large.

As soon as I read that line, I had a mental image of one of those squeaky toys that pops out an eyeball or nose or something when you squeeze it… that would be the shit, to build a helmet with an outer shell of that stuff, seeing someone get smacked with that, and a big red nose pop out of the top! Maybe Thujone or LSUFreak can gen up a quick sample video , and the Chinese can have them ready by our GalleryFurnitureDotCom bowl game…

Orangeblood, well, Stanford’s grass is grass. Not field turf. They let it grow extra long to slow down the Ducks, but it just made it slippery and everyone kept falling over.

Bigdukesix: Juco is an interesting idea. It might be worth looking that way at QB, actually, so we don’t waste all our talent everywhere else. We just need a game manager that knows where to put the ball and can connect on deep passes. Our running game can do the heavy lifting.

I don’t agree that we’re getting back to 2008-09 form unless you mean on defense. I think our offense in 2013 will be miles better, on a position by position basis, than the 08 or 09 squad. Those OL’s were experienced pass-blockers and that’s about the best you can say for them. We didn’t have any gamechangers at RB and only 2 in the receiving corp. Maybe if Collins hadn’t been lost we have 2 both of those seasons.

Nunna, everyone replaces their turf. This is how it works everywhere field turf is used – manufacturer lays the turf, says this will last X years, school says thank you, starts budgeting funds for replacing turf per manufacturer’s representation, replaces turf when time comes. Does everyone think the turf was fine for the first four games and deteriorated the week before the UT game?

I am all for making football much safer, especially reducing head injuries. Penalizing players for using the helmet as a weapon is a good thing. Having said that…Vaccarro had his head up when he made the tackle. Textbook form tackle. The runner definitely dipped his head to lead with his helmet. Runners have to be penalized for leading with the helmet, just like defenders. Definitely use replay on penalties.

It is absurd that a safety device (the helmet) has become a leading source of injury. Redesign the helmet, maybe make it inflatable so that it deforms on collision, flattening out, spreading out the contact area, which will reduce the shock of the contact by increasing the time for the force to be transmitted.

Nickel,

Optimism is a great thing, but you might want to tap the brakes on projecting the 2013 as one of the most talent and experienced defenses ever seen at Texas. Especially when you consider how high that bench mark is at Texas (Just off hand the 1981 and 1983 defenses for example.).

The great thing about young talent is it breeds optimism and it is easy to project high ceilings. Downside is that in many cases it has only shown flashes, but neither been consistent or in some of the positions you site above even been seen.

Consider the defensive tackle position. Off hand which of the young DT’s will be ready to dominate inside like Randall? Howell has looked solid, Dorsey has flashed at times, and Greg Daniels is a really intriguing guy with the build and quickness. Pair them with Malcom and Jackson you have quality depth inside.

I think Texas is headed in the right direction and I think Manny is going to do a great job in Austin. I just want to see some of the guys on campus grow a bit more in skills and consistency before I will start saying things like the 2013 defense will be comparable to the Bama and LSU defenses of this year or the all time greats at Texas.

Toadvine,

Agreed that both of those injuries are so frustrating because there seems to be such an indefinite time line for their healing.

I am curious if Malcolm’s toe is something acute from this year or something that has plagued him from high school.

bigdukesix,

I agree that Texas needs to strongly, strongly due its due diligence on bringing in a JUCO to play the right offensive tackle position. The Horns truck gold with Cochran and Estelle is a great prospect, but to count on kids who haven’t set foot on campus is risky damn business.

Bringing in a JUCO would also send a loud and clear message to Kelly, Greenlea, Doyle and anyone else wanting to play that position not named Cochran. Buckle your ass down, do your work, and don’t just settle for being on the Horns. Push yourself to be the best you can be because if you don’t the coaches will find someone who will get the job done.

I don’t agree that we’re getting back to 2008-09 form unless you mean on defense.

I’m in agreement with you. I said I thought the 2013 would compare favorably to those teams in teams of overall talent. 2009 in particular was basically McCoy, Shipley and a bunch of JAGs on offense. It’s exciting to potentially field a team that could have plus players at every or virtually every position.

I’m not philosophically opposed to recruiting a JUCO QB, but there typically isn’t much out there at that particular position. Rivals has Ryan Mossakowski as the top ranked JUCO QB this year. He wasn’t good enough for a Texas offer out of HS and appears not to hold any offers right now.

Davey O’Brien: Of the young DT’s:
Desmond Jackson, Ashton Dorsey, Calvin Howell, Greg Daniels, Chris Whaley, Malcom Brown all have demonstrated the type of talent necessary to be a quality starter in this league with time, effort, and luck with injury. Given how we’ve been using a rotation, if only 1 of them reaches elite level but the others improve we’re going to wear teams out who are trying to block them. At least one of them will reach elite level. We got Whaley in the right spot much faster than we did with Melton or Houston and I’m pretty bullish on DJ’s development.

Very much of football is just experience and development. Players who understand proper technique and where to be on the field excel in a game loaded with mental challenges. The opportunities afforded by having high-level athletes in your secondary who have played together for multiple seasons are tremendous.

We have tons of kids who have flashed impressive talent and there is potential for them to play together for multiple seasons. It’s hard to screw that up. Even if Diaz leaves and they all have to learn a new scheme it’s going to be hard for this defense and this OL to fail to dominate in 2013.

Bigdukesix: How much of that poor ranking has to do with talent though? (Really I have no idea) There are specific things we will require from our 2012 and 2013 QB’s and most of them are mental in nature. We don’t really need a guy who can hit every throw on the route tree, just throw a catchable deep ball to receivers running behind a defense and be accurate on the throws we do ask him to make.

I actually expect Ash to be able to develop into the kind of starter we need though. He has most of the physical tools and throws down (except that deep ball) and seems imminently capable of acquiring the mental skills with time.

NIckel,

I agree that Texas has got a load of young talent at DT and I think a great guy to develop that talent in Bo. As said I just get cautious when we talk about all-time best in Austin when you consider that one of the lynchpins for those 1981 and 83 defenses inside was Kenneth Sims and no one in that group has flashed that type of dominance.

Safety is going to be very interesting to me in a couple of years. I would love to see Diggs move there as I think he can be great in a role similar to ET. It might be a moot point though if Thompson and Evans play rises to the point it matches their athletic ability.

Phenomenal Smith,

I’m finding tons of articles online about field problems at Missouri. Wait… I’m sorry… those are off-field problems.

Seriously though…. how did you guys lose 5 games? That is a pretty solid team I saw out there. Not Top 25 material, but pretty close.

Art, they finish with Tech and Kansas, so they should finish up a solid 7-5. They lost three close ones on the road (ASU, KSU, and Baylor). So they were just a play here or play there short of being well-above average.

O’Brien: When I said “one of the best defenses we’ve ever seen at Texas” I really meant “that I’ve seen”. I’ve only been a fan in the Mack Brown era, I didn’t watch the 1980’s teams. I would think that 2009 would compare with some of those though.

Diggs to safety is an interesting proposition. He breaks on the ball really, really well when playing a deep 1/3, he has the physicality, and he wouldn’t be limited by his height as much.
However, he can play corner. Why move him to safety when he can lock down guys as a corner? Unless his height proves to limit him from ever realizing the same potential.

Meanwhile, Thompson could be a monster at safety but not at corner. Phillips is a Nickel/Safety star in the making, and Cobbs probably ends up playing some nickel for us. We have lots of options of guys that could excel at safety and not as many who can be a star at corner.

As far as dominance inside for 2013, I’m really more worried about End than Tackle. I think Whaley and Jackson end up amongst the best tackles Mack Brown has coached if none of those other names ever reach that level. We are sorta thin at end though. Does jeffcoat stay for a senior year? Earlier this year I would have said definitely, but then he turned a corner. I don’t know what he’s capable of next year.

Does Kendall Thompson find himself at end? Will Wilson ever find the field? Cedric Reed looks good but does he have elite pass-rush speed? We have lots of guys at that position that look like they may be taught to be excellent ends but I don’t see many guys like Sergio Kindle, Aldon Smith, or Von Miller who have the kind of speed and burst that make dominance an inevitability.

“MU’s turf sucks” – General Paraphrasing of Scipio and numerous commenters.

Did Bill McCartney, Will Muschamp and Scipio all meet at a Promise Keepers Rally this weekend to get their story straight?

Josey’s injury and Whitaker’s injury were completely different and terrible for both (who can’t love Captain America besides the A&M people?).

Josey’s was caused by a completely legitimate large man tackling a somewhat more elusive and smaller man who happened to be trying to go in one direction while in a squat position while the large man forcibly moved him in another direction – on the side line. I have also heard but have yet to confirm that knee injuries are somewhat common in football. Sometimes two happen in the same game although it is rare.

Just because it looks like crap on Tv (or from the press box) doesn’t mean it isn’t safe.

Two injuries in two years. On the same day. Still waiting for the blaming of Robinsons injury on the turf. Was there collateral damage from the rubber flying into it?

It is tough to compare different eras due to the difference in the offenses the 2009 team faced versus the 1981 and 1983 teams.

With that said 2009 doesn’t compare to the overall talent on the those teams. Remember that two of the Horns very best at their given positions were on those two teams (Kenneth Sims in 1981 and Jerry Gray in 1983). The stats for those two squads border on the ridiculous. Kiki DeAyala in ’81 had 12 sacks and 47 quarterback hurries (He had 22 1/2 in 1982). What really makes those numbers absurd is that opponents threw it 314 times and Texas totaled 35 sacks. One out of every 10 pass attempts ended in a sack and the case of DeAyala he had a quarterback hurry just over one out of ever 6 pass attempts that did not result in a sack. In that same year Texas intercepted 23 of the 279 pass attempts were the ball was thrown.

The 1983 team had what might be as good a secondary as Texas has ever had in Gray, Cade, Peavy, Curry, Acorn, good linebackers, and a very good front.

In regards to the future I agree with you in the concern about a lack of depth at defensive end. I am not sure if there is a natural pass rusher outside of Jeffcoat . The answer might be found in either Thompson or Edmond if they grow out of the linebacker position.

Doubt my thought about Diggs moving to safety will ever happen because just like defensive end Texas has a great deal of young defensive backs, but not a lot of corners. Byndom has been a pleasant surprise in the level of his play this year and I think will be a very solid 3-year starter when he finishes in Austin. After Turner and Diggs I don’t recall any of the young freshmen have shown a great deal at corner. Phillips has a great deal of promise, but as you pointed out he might be more in the nickel or as a safety who can cover a slot. That leaves Evans, Scott, and White. Evans has been playing safety and I have heard mixed things about Scott and White.

In the recruiting class Texas has a commit from Echols who I have heard mixed things one and another possibility might be Thomas from Copperas Cove. I don’t know where Texas plans to play him, but I have heard very good things about him and a couple of friends who follow TCU pretty close said we had wanted him to play the corner for us.

davey- that 83 secondary had 2 All-americans (Gray and Cade) in the secondary and I’m pretty sure that the other two DB postions were “only” all-SWC, so we basically had the conference dream team defensive backfield. The D also had an all-american LB in Leiding, plus Tony Degrate on the DL who would win the Lombardi the next year.

That 1983 team still holds the record for most players drafted and the bulk of them were on the defensive side. Granted there were more rounds back then but guys like Gray and Degrate were juniors so were not even included in that total. Just a sick amount of defensive talent on that team.

I would have loved to see them play the Husker offense of Rozier, Gill and Fryar. As much as we complain about the BCS, I wish it had been in place back then so we could have seen that game.

stuckinmn,

Thanks for filling in the details on the 1983 team. I think what happens some times is that what is current is the best and NIckel admitted he had only watched the Horns since Mack has been in Austin.

If you really look at an era those defenses from the mid to late 70’ to the mid 80’s were really very, very good and I don’t think Texas has approached that level of talent on the defensive side of the ball yet.

In defense of the 2009 team:

they faced much different offenses than the early 80’s groups. When they had a chance to go against traditional run-based teams like Alabama or Nebraska that don’t have great quick games, they were getting sacks and pressures on an absurdly high number of plays. They had 5 sacks against Bama on 16 pass plays and completely enveloped the Cornhusker offense.
11 of the 13 main players were NFL roster guys (everyone but Alexander and Gideon…maybe. Good luck Blake).

Different eras, different styles. I take what the 09 team did within their era, in this league, against most college defenses.

It is a tragedy from a college football fan’s perspective that Colt got hurt in that game because I really do think it had the makings of a definite contrast in styles on offense and both teams were very, very good on defense.

Are our offensive prospects rally that bad for next year? Really? Or are people over-reacting? We have what looks like a monster o-line in the making and a good rushing attack. 2 good, not great receivers that are very young, much like the rest of the team. Is it just me? Or are we really just missing some QB growth and some o-line growth. IS it just an experience gap; or a talent one?
.
People seem to be knee-jerking and rationalizing it. I tend to be in the camp the sees really good things for next year. Sure, I’m a homer… but I still hold this team to a high standard as well. I don’t accept our place in the league right now, but we all have seen the consistency continue to grow in several areas. Once the freshmanitus gets out with some more experience, which is normal, there is no reason to not expect a 10 win season next year.

Agree a lot with what “The Man” posted earlier above regarding both that the D overall played a tremendous game (sans a few plays, of course) but that it’s a bit puzzling why we see so much of Gideon and Scott (esp the former) in light of the youth movement and what the former provides as a tradeoff.
You would certainly understand the need for the “coach on the field” when you have a new DC and young guys elsewhere back there. But as has been noted by many, they’re no longer pups, and the season has long since progressed to the point where new blood in prep for next year should at least get some significant time (not saying never to play #21, just limit it a good bit compared to what it is).

bHero,

I can’t answer for anyone else, but here are a few things to consider the Horns have to address for next year.

- offensive line. I wouldn’t exactly say this is a monster offensive line in the making for next year.

Cochran is as good a prospect at left tackle as Texas has had in a few years, but needs to get stronger. Everything about this kid says he will bust his ass to do just that and the question really is time for him.

Snow is gone and that leaves an opening at left guard. I would love to see a right tackle emerge and Hopkins slide inside. The question is who is that right tackle? Kelley will be a junior and most likely should have red-shirted in 2010 (A topic I won’t even touch in this thread.). He is another guy who needed strength. Will he have that by next year? Can’t say, but he struggled at times last week against the pass rush and has been inconsistent. Poehlmann cound be an option, but then you are weakened at tight end which is a key position in Harsin’s offense. Aside from those two I am not real confident you have another candidate currently on campus which leaves Estelle as an option or an unknown-uncommitted recruit.

Some are hoping for Peat and I don’t follow the stuff close enough to know what the Horns chances are for him. I and a few others are in favor of going and getting a JUCO tackle to either take the spot or provide motivation for those on campus. As for Estelle, I don’t like counting on kid who aren’t even out of high school to solve a problem on the roster. Too many things that can go wrong.

Tight end as mentioned about might have multiple bodies, but it is a mess. Poehlmann is a huge help in the run game, but no threat in the passing game at all. Irby is a great story, but he just isn’t the same, Grant has shown flashes though struggles to stay healthy, Dom Jones and Matthews seem like just a couple of guys who really don’t excel in any area at the position, I couldn’t tell you what Graham even looks like and the word is Terrell is not exactly fond of playing that close to the line of scrimmage. So, where do you find people to man the position who pose a culpable threat catching and blocking? Possibly McFarland, but at this point Texas doesn’t have a great deal of options here and I don’t think there is a tight end recruit in the class.

Running back is solid with Brown, Bergeron, and Gray with Monroe to occupy the slot back role. Do with see Orlando Thomas or Thomas Johnson here as well. Does Texas go get another play to fill this slot?

Receiver I think will be better than people think as they should have back not only Davis, Shipley, Harris, Onyegbule, and possibly White. Jones and Johnson add some depth, but not of that matters if you don’t get better quarterback play. In effect right now with the play Texas is getting the Texas receivers are much like the old USSR collection of nuclear warheads during the cold war. Look impressive and can back some pop, but the delivery system sucks.

I don’t think Texas is going to be Wisconsin like in their offensive line so the running game will be enough in 2/3 – 3/4 of their games, but if they want to compete next year they have to be able to throw the ball to some degree of effectiveness.

Brewer is the first qb Harsin has actually recruited to play at Texas, but it is a scary proposition depending upon freshmen at that position. Problem is does anyone really feel good about Ash’s progress the last month of the season?

Problem is does anyone really feel good about Ash’s progress the last month of the season?

I don’t know that I’ve seen enough to say. We’re either busying burning out RBs and not letting him throw against teams where we could afford and still win, or having Ash do nothing but heave 40 yard bombs in games where we need to throw to win. So what he’s really capable of right now is a mystery to me.

where we could afford and still win

Meant to say “where we could afford a mistake and still win”.

Nunna,

It raises the question of did Mack/Harsin/Applewhite go run heavy because that was the identity they wanted to establish, they are confident enough in Ash to turn him loose, or some of both. Unfortunately Gilbert got much of the pre-season work and once you hit the season you spend most of your week putting in the game plan and less working on techinque and mastering your position.

When I think about it the quarterback position has pretty much followed a worst case scenario for the Horns this year.

On the carries for the young backs it is interesting because Ced averaged over 25 carries a game once he was named a starter as a freshman and had over 30 carries in a game twice before he hurt his neck I believe running into Big Mike in Irving. Not saying that was the best use of Ced, but he didn’t seem too much for the worse for it.

When I think about it the quarterback position has pretty much followed a worst case scenario for the Horns this year.

Yeah that’s a good point about GG getting the majority of the fall camp snaps.

On the carries for the young backs it is interesting because Ced averaged over 25 carries a game once he was named a starter as a freshman and had over 30 carries in a game twice before he hurt his neck I believe running into Big Mike in Irving. Not saying that was the best use of Ced, but he didn’t seem too much for the worse for it.

I don’t know what to make of this either.

I have been watching UT football for more years than I care to admit to, and the 1983 defense was the best I have ever seen. Athletic, deep, and they always arrived at the ball with a nasty disposition.

Texas opened that season at #5 Auburn, and the Tigers had already played a contest. Texas won 20-7 and it wasn’t that close. Auburn didn’t cross the 50 in the first half. They had Bo Jackson, Lionel James and Tommy Agee as their running backs. Jackson had 35 yards on 10 carries.

It wasn’t just the athleticism of that group — it was their desire to work as hard as it took to be the best.

Did I say deep?

Here is a list of the defensive backs on that 1983 team that played in the NFL
Jerry Gray
Mossy Cade (although he did spend more years playing for the Federal pen than he did with Green Bay)
Stephen Braggs
Jitter Fields

Those four played in the NFL a combined 22 years.

Jerry Gary will tell you that the DB on the 83 team that may have been the best of the bunch didn’t make the NFL because of injuries — that would be Richard Peavy.

Two others got drafted but only stuck for a year or two: Fred Acorn & Eric Jeffries.

That is 7 defensive backs who all rotated in and out.

Defensive linemen off of that team that made it to the NFL:
Eric Holle
John Haines
Tony Degrate
Bill Heathcock
Ray Woodard
Ed Williams

Other NFL veterans on that team included linebackers Ty Allert, Jeff Leiding, June James as well as punter John Teltschik.

There was a lot of quality depth on that team including players like Blake Brawner, Mike Buchannan, June January, and Mark Lang — all quality D-1 athletes.

As I said it was a defense that got off the bus with a bad attitude and kept that frame of mind right up to the final whistle.

Toe issues follow directly from repeated ass-kicking.

Davy …

That really spoke to my point. Maybe the oline future is exaggerated on my part; I do feel like we will have a more than servicable oline with Walters, Hopkins and Cochran coming back for at least two years. Hearing great things about Flowers as he continues to grow as well. The pipeline looks like it is getting replenished. So it still feels like an experience gap there. I don’t expect we will have a liability at an one spot on the line…. maybe we will, but it should be less than most Big 12 teams next year.

QB play is looking like a worst case scenario with a QB who isn’t quite accurate on the deep ball and really fast wide outs who cant catch a deep ball. But, both are correctable with time. I get it, that we have 2 games in the next week and two days, but we all agreed in August that this was at least a two year plan. We had no business losing to Mizzo last week (losing everyone important can do that), and that may keep us from out 8-4 mark this year; but next year still looks like 10 wins is a legitimate goal. The league loses (probably) Wright-RGII, Blackmon-Weedon, Jones-Broyles and Tannehile-those guys. Everyone will be trying to rebuild next year, save K-State. We should be in prime position for a Big-12 run…. we all generally agree defense will be fine…. is our QB situation that bleak?

srr50,

Thanks for your input on the 1983 defense and its place in Texas football lore. I always appreciate your knowledge and input on the past and current of the program.

bHero,

I think that is a tough question. The quarterback situation to me is a worst case scenario because all of the reps, all that time and attention directed in the Spring and Fall camps getting Gilbert ready to run this office was lost when the decision was made to pull him against BYU. The past is the past and in effect it is no different than had Texas lost him to a season ending injury.

Time is the only real resource you can’t get back and what Harsin desperately needs he won’t be able to get until next Spring. That is the time to sit down with his young quarterbacks and truly work on the basics of the position. Everything from mechancis, to what they are trying to accomplish, and what they should be looking for when they come up to the line of scrimmage. How to watch film, all the little things, that during the course of a season you just don’t have the time to address when you are focusing on winning games.

If you look at the numbers this year there is no doubt that the loss of Jaxon has hurt the team’s passing game. There is no doubt his loss not only cost Ash his most effective weapon in the passing game, but not having him on the field has allowed teams to take away Mike Davis. The other Texas receivers really haven’t shown consistency and the loss of the running game spelled doom last week.

One thing to remember when you talk about next year is that while OU is for sure losing Broyles and might lose Jones they return 8 starters on defense and have some really talented reserves like Nelson to fill in next year.

Hey there, You’ve done an excellent job. I’ll certainly digg it and individually suggest to my friends. I’m confident they’ll be benefited from this site.