JoePa Coda

In a funny coincidence, I got banned from Black Shoe Diaries today because “now is not the time” or some such.

Compare Paterno’s record with Sandusky to his record after Sandusky and tell me what you see. It explains why Sandusky’s crimes were not confronted, even upon discovery years ago.

Paterno won with defense, never offense. We’ll never know how he would have fared were it not for Sandusky.

Let me clear some cobwebs and get to the bottom of why Paterno has always been a bum to me. Paterno started coaching a year or two before I started at UT. I believe PSU went undefeated in ‘67 but was eclipsed by Ohio State, who played a stronger schedule, for the national championship. Paterno pissed and moaned. He’d made them a regional powerhouse, but they didn’t play anybody—they were no national powerhouse.

He was undefeated again in ‘68. He was offered the chance to play the winner of Texas-Arkansas in the Cotton Bowl for all the marbles. Instead, he ducked and opted for Missouri, winners of the Big 8, in the Orange Bowl. Even though PSU edged Missouri, MU players openly stated afterward that they had at least three conference rivals better than the Nittany Lions. When Texas went on to defeat Notre Dame in the Cotton Bowl and claim the AP National Championship (we’d already got UPI thanks to Nixon declaring us champions), Paterno threw a hissy fit. For years he’d make cracks about Nixon’s knowledge of football and the cowardice of bowl voters, but he’s the one who ducked the chance to play heads-up.

I never developed any respect for the man then, and nothing he did since caused me to re-evaluate.

I should hasten to add for all you Longhorn calves that back in the day, the United Press Intnl was the main national championship. It was awarded following the season, before bowl games. This was because several teams, including powerhouses like Notre Dame, still had charters prohibiting post-season play.

The AP award, bestowed after bowl play, grew slowly in stature until by the ’69 bowls, it was clearly the coveted award. Paterno knew he was passing up a clear shot at the title; still he whined.

Here’s my opinion on this horrible Penn State, Paterno firing, end of the story ect. Paterno tried to excuse himself from taking further action in the Sandusky rape case by saying in a recent interview “I had never faced this before, and didn’t know what to do.” If it had been one of his grandchildren getting raped he would have known what to do. Call the FBI, call the CIA, call the S.W.A.T., Marines, Navy Seals, etc. It wasn’t a fact that he did not know what to do, it was a fact that Penn st tried to sweep it under the rug.

Everyone talks about how squeaky clean JoePa’s program was. But it’s now pretty clear why it had such an image: because disclosure and punishment of dozens of players’ incidents were suppressed—-by faculty, staff, police, and administrators. Penn St is isolated geographically. No major media markets or investigative reporters around. All outgoing info was controlled by JoePa, and make no mistake—he controlled it so that no negative info escaped.

The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones.

I said this quite a while back, after Paterno made the claim that it was so foreign to him that he didn’t know what to do other than report things, a day later, to his superiors.

You don’t wait. If you even think there is substance to that kind of allegation, you IMMEDIATELY call the police, the sheriff’s department, child protective services, and if it’s still going on, you intervene to stop it IMMEDIATELY.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but if the child was one of mine, or someone else’s, I’m gonna stop what’s happening, and I’ll use whatever’s at hand to stop it. Common sense, if nothing else, says anyone has the responsibility to protect a child, any child, from a predator. Make no mistake, Sandusky is a predator, and no matter what Paterno did good in his life and career, he failed miserably in that most basic of responsibilities.

I don’t doubt he did much good in his life, and it’s a shame Paterno will forever be seen in the light of the last several months, but he brought it on himself by failing to act to protect the kids from Sandusky. I’m sorry for his passing…but I can’t forget what he DIDN’T do. No one I know would have any questions about what to do to stop child sexual abuse…or any child abuse.

For me, you only had to see the size of the house he chose to live in, the library he paid for, and the emotional response of those who knew him to see what kind of life this man lived. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. We all make the mistakes, and for people in positions of authority and power, the mistakes will be greater by far because of their ability to impact others.

“It’s a shame Paterno will forever be seen in the light of the last several months…” That may be true for YOU, but I’ll judge the man by the entirety of his work. I’m not going to tell you how YOU should feel, but do me the favor of extending me the same courtesy. Seriously, there’s room for a lot of opinion on this.

There is absolutely NO room for opinion as far as child rape is concerned. ZERO!. No grey area at all. If you know or suspect a child much less many children are being raped then you contact the police immediately. No questions asked.
Please read this if you are unfamiliar with the absolute evil of child abuse.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/22/1057341/-F

MIA, if he were a cop, charged with investigating crimes, I’d agree with you. Or if he were himself accused of those acts, I’d agree. Or if he’d WITNESSED it himself, I’d agree. None of those are true. He passed it up the chain to people who should have been positioned to address it professionally.

And what’s more, if THEY’D done the right thing, be it after an in house investigation or otherwise, we’d all judge Paterno as a hero. That’s outcome-oriented judgment, and I don’t find it fair on these facts. But that’s just me, you’re just as right if you feel differently.

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)

What gets me, is all of this “I won’t judge him for the last few months” nonsense. I will judge him for the (at least) decade of covering child rape this man did. Don’t forget, the worst part isn’t that this came to light near the end of his life (contrary to what the byline on Black Shoe Diaries may want you to believe), the worst part is it happened, period.

Texan Nick, thanks for some perspective. It’s embarrassing that many of you use choose to blindly follow the sensationalism of ESPN and not seek out facts. Not doing enough vs actively covering up a crime are two completely different things. What’s amazing is that if anyone deserves this criticism, its McCreary. He is the one that heard something but didnt immediately do anything. He also says that he didn’t actually see anything including sex. He was grown man and had the most responsibility in this situation. Unless anyone of you has actually been in the exact position Paterno was in, spare me what you think you would do. It’s amazing how everyone wants to use the protection of kids to spew hate toward a person that has a long history of good. Oh and I’ve been a “victim” of this so I know first hand how people just don’t know how to react in this situation. All the machismo men and bad asses of the world cratered when I sought help. I don’t blame anyone. I understand. Shock and wanting to not believe something awful is reality. If family or close friends are involved its worse. So spare me that a person that had second hand, cloudy information of what someone thought they heard since they admit they didn’t SEE anything is crucified by people who have drawn conclusions without really understanding the facts. I lack the adjective to describe how asinine it is for anyone to really believe that he proactively participated in the abuse of kids to protect his legacy. It’s just stupid if you take a step back and think. I also find it appalling to use the “it’s all about the kids” line. Because of the nature of the allegations, people feel empowered to say whatever they want because it’s all in the name of protecting our children. It’s lazy and easy because anyone that has a supportive view of Paterno is quickly dismissed as supporting abuse. I’m surprised that a UT website hasnt had different discourse about this.

http://www.walter-c-uhler.com/Reviews/mcqueary.html

People who knew Joe Paterno love, respect and admire him with an affection that goes far beyond the norm.

People who never knew him but read some stuff on the internet think he’s a real shitheel.

Word, Thanos. Preach.

Paterno has taken way too much of Sandusky’s heat.

Sandusky is the one to blame. Period.

It’s a shame that Paterno was made the story.

The story is Sandusky. Everyone else is a victim of Sandusky. Everyone.

" I believe PSU went undefeated in ’67 but was eclipsed by Ohio State, who played a stronger schedule, for the national championship."

1968.

Thank you YM; TN nails it and has for some time. You and I have been on the unpopular side of this debate since it started.

Coach K nails it in his interview below. It is required listening for all those on this blog. Make note of his special, subtle mention of the media and university.

He also had the quote of the day, “the main championships that Paterno won are the men that he produced, they’re living championships”

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGEWI4EooeE

 Could he have done more? Yes, he with hindsight admits as much. But we all make mistakes as we are all human. There is something very noble about the way he lived his life. He was loyal to a university and a community when he could have easily left for other jobs for more money. He lived in the same house when he could have bought a bigger house for over 40 years, he donated millions back to the education of young people, and his Salary of 600K was well below the market for his profession. These values are strikingly absent today. What a great example in this age of materialism, greed, and selfishness.

 It’s only with his death that people are not afraid to talk about him in a positive light. The very network that fanned the flames is now honoring his achievements and rightfully so.

 Anyone that knew him all say the same thing. That he was a great man who lived a decent and honorable life and his impact on humanity is immeasurable. From ex US presidents to the winningest basketball coach in college basketball history to the psu board of trustees to his fellow coaching fraternity to most importantly, the countless football players (PSU and non PSU players), ordinary students, faculty members, and normal every day people who have continually said how much he shaped and molded their lives. In fact, many players sent their sons to play for Paterno. How could you not? He graduated 87 percent of his players. It’s difficult to find a person who knew Joe Paterno who can say one bad thing about him. As noted above in a post, yes there was a faculty member who said that he tried to interfere and be allowed to punish his players as he saw fit. Doesn’t Mack Brown do this? That article was media sensationalism at its finest as ordinary students are subject to a coach’s punishment or media scrutiny. It’s difficult to find a person who knew him who recently abandoned him.

We would all be so lucky to live our lives the way he lived his. I wish I could have the impact that he had on others but that is a nearly impossible task. And I’m not ashamed to say that if I lived 1/100th the life that Joe Paterno lived, I would consider my life a huge success. Is he Saint? No, just a good and decent man who lived his life the best he could and better than most on this board.

Let us not forget the facts. He was not indicted for any crimes, he was hailed by the investigating authorities as having acted appropriately before the media firestorm, he did not witness anything, he reported to his superiors one of whom oversaw campus police. He was not a lawyer, investigator, police officer, prosecutor; he was just a football coach and educator.

Awesome Thanos! Haven’t read that link yet and I have read a lot of them. Way to go!

Thanks for that link, MIA.
Words are inadequate.

I don’t hate the man. And I don’t think everyone that disagrees with TN and Thanos does either. He did a lot of good. But for all the good things the man did, any hint of child abuse, whether proven or not, needs to be turned over to the “proper” authorities, not reported to your boss. Paterno himself said he deeply regretted he didn’t do more. But he had ten years to correct that mistake and never did. For all the good he did, the biggest challenge I know of that he faced, he failed miserably. It is with a very sad heart I now remember the man I had so much respect for.

Just read the link that MIA linked and yes, words are inadequate. The first two paragraphs says all you want to know about the person who wrote that.

I used to be a huge Paterno fan, but the Sandusky story is irreconcileable with his reputation.

Paterno claims that the very idea of pedophilia was foreign to him, yet he is a Brown graduate with a lifelong love of the classics. That’s unbelievable.

He claims he did what was required- bubbling up the accusation to his superiors, with no further responsibility nor need to follow up on findings. That may be true legally, but is a cop-out for him, given his power and influence at PSU. If McQueary had told him that he overheard Sandusky telling players that Paterno was too old, and was losing it, does anybody think Paterno would have simply turned the allegation over to somebody else, and left it alone? Hell, no. He would have made sure it was investigated, and if he determined Sandusky was undermining him, he would be banned from that campus forever. Yet the actual allegation was so much worse, and yet ignored by Paterno for follow up.

And McQueary was kept on staff and promoted to a full time position. This story still has connections missing.

You Paterno apologists disgust me.

I pray that if any of you ever has a kid in need of help someone does more for them than JoePa did for the poor children to whom Penn State had become a literal torture chamber.

Who among you had any sexual contact with an adult, before puberty?

I don’t doubt for one moment that Joe Paterno did many great things in his life. I don’t doubt that the quality of man most of his players over the years are reflects very favorably on Paterno. It’s admirable that he gave back to Penn State in the form of a library.

I don’t disbelieve him when he says he was caught aback when told about Sandusky’s actions, that he didn’t understand much, if anything, about pedophilia. I would hope it’s true that something that horrible is foreign to most people…that being said, there are more out there that have experienced it in one form or another than most of you would imagine…I know that for a fact.

I don’t hate Joe Paterno, nor do I believe everything that’s been posted about him. I understand that it was Sandusky, not Joe Paterno, that raped young boys. I also understand that Joe Paterno alone is NOT responsible for the fact that Sandusky was allowed to practice his pedophilia for over a decade. Strictly speaking, Joe Paterno met the letter of the law, as he supposedly understood it, by informing his superiors of what he had been told. The problem for so many in retrospect is that Paterno appears to have done the bare minimum by only reporting to his superiors, and by not following up on his report. That flies in the face of the reputation he built up over decades, and quite frankly, is puzzling.

It’s not for me to pass judgement…I knew of him, but didn’t know him, and nobody has appointed me to judge anyone. I will say what I said above…if there is the allegation of child abuse, including child sexual abuse, the minimum, the “letter of the law” is not enough. That’s not a judgement…it’s fact. There’s a moral imperative to do whatever it takes to help make a child safe. That moral imperative applies to everyone. IMHO that NOTHING related to the Sandusky child rape allegations was a “mistake”. A mistake is forgetting to show up for an appointment, and the like. NOT immediately stopping a child predator when there are allegations and any evidence goes way beyond a mistake for ALL in involved in the Sandusky case.

Joe Paterno deserves the eulogies for the good things he did for so many in his life, and those things shouldn’t be forgotten. There are many reasons why he’s so iconic in Pennsylvania and beyond. However, unfortunate as it is that he was tainted by the Sandusky allegations, he was, and that won’t be forgotten either. It’s part of his legacy now, and that makes me sad, because I believe Joe Paterno was a very honorable man at heart.

You guys that blame Mcqueary more than Paterno are like those who blame your 6 year old more than yourself for reporting a burglary. If Mcqueary doesn’t speak up, NOBODY is held accountable. He was a peon. He told the most powerful person in the state of Pennsylvania.

It’s real easy to have a great image when you’re the most powerful person in your state, and control all information about yourself and your operation. People who have a sterling image of Paterno do so for two reasons: because he won a lot of football games (thanks to Sandusky), and all the bad things he did about protecting players and coaches who committed crimes and failed classes were suppressed and never let out. And there was no media around to bust him on it.

If Tressel or Pete Carroll coached in State College, PA they would have still have sterling reputations too.

If that had been me in the showers with Sandusky, my grandfather (and grandmother, by the way) would have done more than just a one-time notice to the administration.

Period.

Coolhorn (and others), I completely respect your position, and it’s perfectly valid. I don’t completely agree with it, but I completely understand where you’re coming from.

I do have one follow-up question though. Can you define what you wanted him to do as “follow up”?

Not blaming mcqueary. Just saying that a first hand account has a greater burden. You all are the ones in the blame game. I’m not even giving him a pass but the notion that this removes all the positive impact is just dumb

Nick, something like this- “Hey, AD, whatever happened with that allegation about Sandusky? Went nowhere? Does that mean I have to fire McQueary for making false claims?”

or

“What? Police handling it with kid gloves because of the impact on PSU football? That’s ridiculous. If something bad happened it has to be addressed! It will only get worse if we don’t.”

“Can you define what you wanted him to do as "follow up"?”

Simple. Make sure that under his watch no more kids were raped. Call. The. Police. This isn’t some middle manager, this was the king of central pennsylvania, the biggest fish in that small pond. Whatever JoePa needed to have done he had the resources to do by the nature of being JoePa.

People are eulogizing him as a great leader. How many great leaders do the bare minimum and then sit back and hope someone else does the right thing? Do I need a new definition of leadership?

We’ve known for a long time now that in 1999, Paterno told his longtime (as in an unheard of 30 years), highly-successful defensive coach Sandusky that Sandusky would not succeed Paterno has HC at Penn St.

Sandusky retired from Penn St after the 1999 season.

We’ve also known for a long time now that Sandusky never coached again in any capacity after the 1999 season, even though he has stated he wanted to and tried to.

What we did not know, until late 2011, is that in 1998 McQueary informed Paterno about Sandusky doing something in the shower with a child.

Hm. Make more sense now for you braindead Paterno apologists?

Any idea why a highly-successful

Paterno had 1 losing season and all of his MNCs in 31 seasons WITH Sandusky.

Paterno had 4 losing seasons in 15 WITHOUT Sandusky.

Reference the question about followup, there should have been no need for followup. IF Paterno immediately reports what he was told to the police, and I don’t necessarily mean the campus police, there would be an investigation. The raping of a child is as serious as it gets. It would be up to police investigators to determine if indeed it happened, but Joe Paterno would have done more than the bare minimum, and there would be NO need for followup on his part. Based on Sandusky being gone from his coaching position in 1999, the appearance is that Paterno knew something was wrong that far back, and police should have been notified that far back by him or anyone else who knew Sandusky is a child predator.

HB,

 That’s flat out false! mcqueary informed Paterno in 2002. And we know he was very vague with Paterno. Paterno claims he knew nothing of an incident in 1998. The DA didn’t pursue the 1998 claims any further. This is a perfect example of media sensationalism….it has everyone confused. Your previous assertion that he protected players is false as well. He punished them as he saw fit much like our beloved Mack Brown does.

OC, McQueary was an adult in his mid to late 20’s, he wasn’t a child. If I’m not mistaken we have men younger than that who serve in the military, vote, and are of legal drinking age. However, McQueary also had conversation with Curley and Schultz(who oversaw the university police).

CMDR, I guess you are disgusted with President Bush, Coach K, and the countless thousands who knew Joe Paterno who have had nothing but glowing things to say about him.

They need to do way instain coaches> who touch thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back? it was on the news this mroing a coach in pa who had touch his students.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7506640/joe-paterno-penn-state-nittany-lions-thousands-gather-memorial-service

Here is another to lash your venom towards.

Coolhorn, I’ve worked on the prosecuting and defending side of law enforcement, and I can tell you first hand that there would NOT have been an investigation if Paterno called the police. Paterno didn’t have first-hand knowledge of ANYTHING.

I have one question that I believe, if answered, would tell us everything we need to know about Paterno’s moral culpability, and it flows from CMDR’s point: What did Paterno’s superiors tell HIM about what steps they were taking after he reported it up the chain? Was he told that an investigation was underway? Was he told an investigation couldn’t substantiate the claims?

If the test is his “follow up”, then we need to know what he was told AFTER it went up the chain, and nobody’s talking about that yet.

Sorry, meant TaylorT’s point.

We agree to disagree Nick. You would not have to be Joe Paterno, or another celebrity, to get any law enforcement agency to investigate an report of child sexual abuse. If a report is made of that, by anyone, it will be looked into. There may or may not be sufficient evidence to substantiate an allegation, but the report will not be swept under the rug by any law enforcement agency I know of. As to your other point, I have no idea if Paterno actually followed up on his report to his superiors, and if he did, what he was told. I haven’t read that anyone else knows that either.

Who among you had any sexual contact with an adult, before puberty?
Why don’t you ask your mom?

If that were your son in the Penn St locker room shower with Sandusky, would you be satisfied with:

—whom Paterno informed (the AD, once)
—whom he didn’t inform (parents, police)
—how aggressively/passively he acted and followed up
—how he allowed Sandusky into the football facilities for years after the fact, and
—how he behaved/spoke on his front lawn “pep rally” a few days after the story broke?

If no, quit posting your support for Paterno.

If yes, that’s spooky.

Question: To me, it’s not about being a supporter versus a detractor. It’s about asking fair questions designed to get at the relevant information before making a judgment. It’s about having sensical rules about what you’re supposed to do when you come into this type of information. It’s also about not heaping responsibility for every evil that takes place on people ill equipped to deal with them. I don’t expect a football coach to have the power to stop every bad act that takes place in the state, but there seems to be a lot of people on here and elsewhere that DO have that expectation, and I don’t fully understand it.

A lot of the conversation on this thread condemns Paterno for doing the “bare minimum”. But people, recognize that we arrive at “bare minimums” by reaching consensus on what we expect people to do. We don’t ask doctors to play cop, we don’t ask judges to heal sick people.

I don’t have any problem with changing the rules to raise the floor. If you want to make a rule that any person who hears (not witnesses, just HEARS) about sexual abuse of a child MUST go to the police under ALL circumstances, then I don’t have a problem with that. But recognize two things. First, if the reportee (in this case, Paterno) has no first hand knowledge, it’s almost certainly not going to go anywhere. The minute the police learn that McQueery told one version to Paterno, and a completely different version to the AD, they’re going to throw up their hands. Second, merely accusing people of acts of this nature has a negative effect on the person accused, and if the charges AREN’T true, it’s nearly impossible to “unring the bell”.

So, taking those things into account I feel like there is information still to be discovered that is relevant to whether Paterno had a moral responsibility (since we already agree he satisfied the legal ones) to do something other than what he did. Simply put, I need to know what he was told about the AD’s investigation.

Incidentally, If it were MY son, he wouldn’t be alone with another adult after hours like that, but that’s me. If I can’t take my kid to a game, I’m certainly not trusting some guy I don’t know to do it for me. We’ll just have to DVR it and watch together later. But if something like that DID happen to my son, I’d like to think I’d have the presence of mind (though it’s certainly possible I wouldn’t) to realize that Sanduskey and McQueery, not Paterno, are the ones most chiefly responsible for it.

It boils down to this. Without more information, I’m not willing to condemn a man for failing to stop child abuse he had nothing to do with, and didn’t see himself. I don’t ask a football coach who hears a second hand and vague accusation to suddenly quit being a coach and turn himself into an investigator. I’ve said before on similar threads that all of you MAY be right about Paterno. It’s absolutely possible he’s as morally “guilty” as you seem to think he should be. I just want to hear more before I put myself out on that ledge with you.

TexanNick,

1. Do you have children?

2. Have you read Sandusky’s autobiography, where he spends 90% of the time talking about little boys, and 10% of the time talking about football?

3. Did you know that the DA investigating Sandusky in Penn St’s county DISAPPEARED, and to this day no one knows what happened to him? Don’t you think Paterno knows that? State College, PA is a pretty sleepy town.

4. Do you truly think that Paterno’s detractors think he is “just a football coach who is expected to stop every bad act in his state?” I can’t think of one person who thinks that. Can you?

5. Or do you think Paterno was arguably the most powerful person in his state, and unarguably the most powerful person at Penn St university—-and that his longtime, key employee (not just any employee) was indicted for several (not one) case of child sex abuse—-some of which happened at Paterno’s faciltiies on Penn St property, which Sandusky had been still using up until recently, some of this child sexual abuse which was brought directly to Paterno’s personal attention——and a coupla days after discovering this tragic and devastating scandal (whether guilty or not, it’s a massive criminal and civil litigation nightmare to Penn St), Paterno revs up a pep rally on his front yard as his sole response, and that people expected not only more but much, much more from Paterno given his power, status, influence, and image as it pertains to Penn St?

Paterno has had a working, nearly daily relationship with Sandusky for 40 years.

I’m trying to think of someone I’ve had a daily relationship with for over 40 years, and can’t think of anyone. The only people I’ve known for 40 years are my parents and my siblings. That’s it.

Undisputed fact admitted by Sandusky: he was naked in a Penn St football shower with a naked preteen boy—-just the two of them. At a weird time of the week and day, to boot.

Read that again.

Wow.

Throw in all the other “smoke” that has been alleged but not yet proven, and the wow multiplies by one million.

Paterno turned Penn St into his cult, and he was the cult leader. Maybe wasn’t conscious, but that’s where it ended up. People don’t cross the cult leader. The reason know one understands what they see from Penn St students rioting on TV, and hearing Penn St alumni broadcasters and reporters getting angry at those who fired Paterno, not at Sandusky, and almost never mentioning the potential child victims, is because Penn St truly became Paterno St—-idolatry and all. Paterno became their idol, their god. And that’s why their reactions are always directed at the wrong issue, and the wrong people.

Incidentally, If it were MY son, he wouldn’t be alone with another adult after hours like that, but that’s me. If I can’t take my kid to a game, I’m certainly not trusting some guy I don’t know to do it for me.

That’s a disingenuous statement at best. Predators select the vulnerable (single parent kids, usually in slight trouble with the law etc ) to prey on, which is why Sandusky’s “Second Mile” charity connection is particularly ghoulish.

It’s also about not heaping responsibility for every evil that takes place on people ill equipped to deal with them. I don’t expect a football coach to have the power to stop every bad act that takes place in the state, but there seems to be a lot of people on here and elsewhere that DO have that expectation, and I don’t fully understand it.

Again this seems disingenuous to me. We are not talking about “bad acts that take place in the state” we are talking about bad acts taking place in a limited area — in which the football coach has authority — by a trusted assistant and friends for over 30 years.

Take a look at the timeline.

1995: The biological mother of one of Sandusky’s legally adopted sons writes “letters of concern” about Sandusky to child welfare officials and a judge—the first documented allegation against Sandusky of abuse.

1997-98: Sandusky first makes “physical contact” with Victim 4 while swimming. Victim 4 travels to the 1998 Outback Bowl as a member of Sandusky’s family party. He accompanies the team and other staff, even sharing the same accommodations. This boy also frequently stays with Sandusky in a hotel room near the Penn State campus on the night before Penn State home games. Sandusky’s wife is “never present” for these sleepovers.

The most damming of all (IMO)
May 1998: Sandusky picks up Victim 6 and drives him to Penn State’s campus to work out. During the drive, Sandusky places his hand on Victim 6’s left thigh several times. He asks him to shower, even though Victim 6 does not want to. The boy says Sandusky bear-hugged him, washed his back and picked him up and placed him under the shower head to rinse him off. Upon returning home, Victim 6’s mother notices his hair is wet and calls university police.

The mother has two conversations with Sandusky; A university police detective and a State College police detective listen in on both of them, with the mother’s consent. Sandusky admits to the mother he has showered with other boys. She asks him not to do it again. Sandusky tells the mother, according to the grand jury summary, “I understand. I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won’t get it from you. I wish I were dead.” Sandusky also admits what he did to a university police detective and an investigator with the state Department of Public Welfare.

So by 1998 members of the Penn State University Police, State College Police Department, Centre County Office of the District Attorney, Second Mile attorney, Penn State attorney, Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare were aware of allegations concerning Sandusky.

The idea that none of those involved checked with Sandusky’s superiors (Paterno included) defies imagination.

Even if Paterno only heard unsubstantiated rumors, when McQueary arrives at his door in 2002, it certainly should have set up a red flag. Passing it on and then not following up makes no sense whatsoever if for nothing else than the alarms it would set off about protecting your program.

From a distance, I still have a lot of respect for what Joe Paterno accomplished in his lifetime. From a distance I do believe the fostered an atmosphere of teaching the whole person, not just the athlete.

From a distance I also believe that he stayed too long, and was enabled by others to exert influence over the campus in all facets way past the point of productivity.

From a distance I believe he didn’t want to accept that a trusted assistant and friend turned out to be evil to the core. I believe that others in charge were more concerned with helping to bolster’s Paterno’s beliefs (and keep the program "clean) to the detriment of the victims.

I believe that it is foolish to dismiss out of hand over 5 decades of work from a good man. I have sympathy for Patero and his family, and I fully understand those who defend him.

I have even more sympathy for the victims of this story who seem to get lost in the undertow far too often.

What did Joe Paterno accomplish, though, apart from Sandusky? Four losing seasons, ten winning seasons, no national championships, and a 66% win rate. What’s so great about that?

Sandusky was the reason Penn St was so great on the field—-their defense. And Paterno knew it, and placed so much value on it that he protected/defended it to the point of irrationality. When you do that, you get burned bad. And Paterno did.

Question:
1. Yes
2. I have not read his autobiography, nor do I imagine adding it to my reading list anytime soon.
3. Yes, I was aware of the D.A.‘s disappearance. And yes, I assume at some point Paterno learned about it. I couldn’t tell from your question whether you think some conclusion should be drawn from that knowledge.
4/5. I’m not willing to buy into Joe Paterno as the most powerful person in the state meme that you seem willing to. Most powerful person at Penn State? Well, maybe, but the Board of Curators just showed who’s boss a few months ago, so I don’t really buy that either. As for his longtime key employee, when the 2002 accusation came out, the guy hadn’t been on the payroll in 3 years. Like a lot of former athletics department employees, he had continuing access to the facilities. I believe that’s common at many universities, including Texas. Darrell Royal, Earl Campbell, Donnie Little, and several other former students or staff have offices in Bellmont, so I assume this is a common practice. If any of these people were accused of similar activities, would we blame Mack Brown?

Also, you may want to redefine your terms. McQueery’s accusation was brought to Paterno’s attention, but that’s NOT the same thing as saying he had “personal knowledge”. Personal knowledge means first hand information – I saw it, I witnessed it, I have it, I did it. THAT’S personal knowledge, and as far as we know, Paterno had none. I don’t even think anyone has implied that he did.

I don’t even know how to respond to your “Paterno revved up a pep rally” thing. Do you have any evidence to suggest he organized or recruited anyone to come to his house? If so, please include a link. I’m not saying you shouldn’t be bothered by the spectacle, arguably you SHOULD. But that doesn’t give you license to accuse Paterno of doing it, unless you’ve got something to back it up.

Texan Nick,

The Mack Brown-Royal relationship, or Mack Brown-Earl relationship, are not even in the same galaxy as the Paterno-Sandusky relationship. Those comparison’s don’t fly.

Are you aware that Sandusky admitted to taking a preteen boy to the Penn St football facilties and just the two of them showered together, both naked, on the Friday night before Penn St’s spring break, when no one else was in the facility? If so, what do you think of that?

PS Please don’t ever apply to be on the Texas Board of Regents. Thank you.

I believe that’s common at many universities, including Texas. Darrell Royal, Earl Campbell, Donnie Little, and several other former students or staff have offices in Bellmont, so I assume this is a common practice. If any of these people were accused of similar activities, would we blame Mack Brown?

Please, even you can’t believe this is a credible argument. First of all those mentioned had actual jobs within the athletic department. Sandusky had no official capacity within the department after 1999, and yet was still allowed to have total access. Even after the 2002 incident when he was told not to bring children on campus, he was seen at practices and games with young boys.

I again refer to the quote from Edmund Burke:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

For me that is at the heart of this scandal and it encompasses every person in authority who had knowledge of the accusations against Jerry Sandusky.

Srr50:

You’re absolutely right about predators and those that they target. One other thing they do quite frequently is fool those that know them best.

But notice one thing lacking from the 1995, 1997/98, and 1998 incidents: There aren’t any overtly criminal acts that are mentioned. And you said yourself, the police (both State College and campus), the D.A., Second Mile, Penn Public Welfare, ALL of them suspect SOMETHING is up with the guy, but can’t make a case. Did Paterno know this? Let’s assume he did. What further action is he supposed to take? Maybe his friend convinced him that the fact that authorities couldn’t make a case meant he actually was innocent. Regardless, for whatever reason, he decides in 1999 that Sanduskey isn’t going to succeed him. Maybe it was because of the allegations, or maybe it was because Paterno really didn’t want to quit (which seems pretty plausible to me). Either way, Sanduskey retires, or maybe he’s forced out, who knows? But at that point, is there sufficient reason to treat him differently from any other other retired coach, in terms of access to the facilities, etc? I would argue that there was, but that decision was made by people who knew him, and they might have been fooled.

Fast forward to 2002: Paterno hears McQueery’s story, forwards it up the chain to the AD/University Admin. Maybe he’s told they’ll investigate. Maybe he’s told they can’t locate the boy. Maybe he’s told factual things, maybe they lie to him. After all, Paterno is the poster child for rectitude, right? So maybe the AD and Prez decide not to tell him everything, and create the impression the situation is being handled. To me, the question of Paterno’s responsibility at that point rests on what he was told and what he believed. What he knew or believed kind of determines what kind of “follow-up” was called for, no?

Honey Badger,

I AM aware that Sanduskey has admitted that, and I suspect I find it as disgusting as you do. But I’m pretty sure this thread is about Paterno’s legacy and culpability, not Sanduskey’s. This is the disingenuous leap I believe you and others are making. You want to use the heinous nature of Sanduskey’s acts to short circuit an inquiry into PATERNO’S responsibility. In other words, you’re saying that Sanduskey’s actions are so bad, we don’t really need to worry about what Paterno knew or what he thought. I think that’s disingenuous B.S.

TexanNick:

You want to use the heinous nature of Sanduskey’s acts to short circuit an inquiry into PATERNO’S responsibility.

Just the opposite for me. The fact that Joe Paterno led such an honorable life should not short circuit any inquiry into his responsibility. To make it perfectly clear I (and I believe most others) are not talking about legal but rather the basic moral responsibility to identify and stop evil.

Texan (JoePa) Nick,

I’ve read all of your posts but haven’t seen even one phrase from you about how disgusting Sandusky’s actions were. So, no, I didn’t know. All I’ve seen if you defend Paterno’s handling of Sandusky at every turn.

When it comes to Penn St football, and football staff, and football facilties, the buck stops with the God of Penn St football——Joe Paterno.

No one has keys or access to Penn St’s football facilties unless Paterno wants them to. And that Paterno wanted Sandusky to have that access after Paterno knew Sandusky showered naked with a preteen boy, also naked, in the Penn St showers at a weird time on a weird day——-Paterno must put on his big boy pants and shoulder everything he gets coming to him.

I wonder what JoePa told his wife, if anything, about the Sandusky shower deal at the time it happened. And I wonder what he’s told her over the last 60 days about it. I’m guessing the prosecutors are going to want to know that too, at some point.

Paterno won two national titles with Sandusky, and zero without Sandusky.

Paterno had one losing season (out of 31) with Sandusky, but had four losing seasons in the first five after Sandusky “retired” from Penn St in 1999.

Oh, and exactly one year before Sandusky’s “retirement” the year when police, investigators, and one of the victims’ mother sat down and confronted Sandusky over the naked showering bit. Sandusky admitted to them that he was wrong (among other things) and told them “I wish I were dead.” Pretty bizarre statement for someone to say who was just horsing around in the shower, n’est-ce pas?

I do not know how people believe the horseshit that Joe Paterno had no fault in this mess. He knew children were being raped. He did nothing.

That’s the fucking end of the story. Period. He is culpable.

Required reading:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/opinion/brooks-lets-all-feel-superior.html

Required listening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGEWI4EooeE

Required viewing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTZQAGx9rDY

The media won the battle but will end up losing the war over Paterno’s legacy.

TN, do not waste your time anymore. You guys remember the Salem Witch trials correct? Let’s take our anger out on a very visible football coach instead of the person who committed the crimes, the person who witnessed a possible raping, the person who oversaw the campus police, the person in charge of the athletic department, and the person in charge of the university all of whom knew about the incident and what to do about it.

I believe Joe Paterno, as a very old man, was guilty of living in some denial (understandably and not maliciously so) about someone he’d known forever. I believe, as an honorable man, Joe Paterno could hardly conceive of the level of dishonor that was a reality in Sandusky’s life.

I believe that’s what Joe Paterno was guilty of, and I believe he’s been disproportionately punished by the emotionally irrational among us, in complete and total ignorance of the great preponderance of good he did in his life.

I believe many of you vilifying him, in the exact same position, would’ve responded a lot more like him than you’re willing to consider.

There is a great rush to either give him a standing ovation or overnight him to the depths of hell. And I don’t agree with it, and I’m prepared to accept it if that disgusts you.

I don’t know how many of you in the Burn Joe Burn crowd are Christians, but if you are, you’re doing it wrong. And that’s also disgusting.

If you’re in such a mood for a villain, Jerry Sandusky has tremendous qualifications.

Also, Mack Brown is a Paterno apologist.

Here’s the deal. Joe Paterno did many great and noble things in his life. That is undeniable. He also made one horrible, horrible mistake that scarred the lives of many helpless and innocent children. That is on his ledger, too.

That’s how life is. Good managers understand that getting 95 out of 100 decisions right isn’t a good job if the 5 wrong decisions are the most important ones. The same goes for character and integrity.

There is a famous photo of Nazi concentration camp guards singing carols around the camp’s office Christmas tree. They may have been Christians, and loved (and been loved by) their families. It doesn’t matter. They committed evil acts, or were complicit in them, and if they were hunted down by the Mossad and killed in their beds 30 years later they deserved it.

Then there is Oskar Schindler. He was an unfaithful husband and cheat in business. Yet, faced with the evil of his age, and given a position with incentives to just look the other way while others did the dirty work, he acted humanely. He is both our example for beavior, and the scold for those who don’t act when faced with evil. Yes, he actually did make a good name with a very few good, decent, and brave acts, which served to outweigh a lifetime of petty, selfish sins.

This story did not end with Paterno’s death. It’s a shame he won’t have a chance to defend his reputation from what will be said in the trials over the next several years. I don’t feel too sorry for him, though. He passed on his best chance to save his good name back in ’98 and ’02.

My apologies if I do not side with the NY times or some random youtube posting.

Child.

Rape.

He knew about it.

That’s all I need to know. If he were not Joe Paterno he would have have been charge with criminal negligence.

Young Williams-

Seriously? You would have responded like him is what you are trying to say?

Absolutely, positively no fucking way.

Stats don’t lie Newy. Sorry.

Plus, he was hailed by investigating authorities as having acted correctly before the media firestorm.

Plus, he was hailed by investigating authorities as having acted correctly before the media firestorm.

At the press conference to announce the Sandusky investigation (before the media firestorm) asst. Pennsylvania D.A. Linda Kelly said, We believe that under the statute he had an obligation to report it to the school administrators and he did that,"

State police Commissioner Frank Noonan said the same and added,

“I think you have the moral responsibility — anyone, not whether you’re a football coach or a university president or the guy sweeping the building — I think you have a moral responsibility to call us.”

Your idea of praise for an action and mine apparently are not the same.

Newy-

I have absolutely zero thought or hope I’ll change your thoughts on this, but since you’ve asked…

No, I’m not saying I’d have responded the same way. I’m saying I don’t and can’t know how I’d have responded. And neither can you or anyone else.

You certainly don’t agree, and that’s your right.

And because I don’t and can’t know that, I’m willing to give the man a little more benefit of he doubt, on account of the incredible amount of good we know he did, than the rot in hell, Joe crowd.

I believe one man and one man only was responsible for making sure Jerry Sandusky didn’t rape children, and that man was Jerry Sandusky. And I believe he victimized Joe Paterno just like a hundred other people who trusted him.

Jerry Sandusky. Not Joe Paterno. Not Mike McCreary. Not Graham Spanier. Jerry Sandusky.

I am beyond content to let the blame and fault begin and end with him.

Anyway, Joe’s dead and like all of us he’ll be weighed on the balance. I hope it goes as mercifully for him as I hope it goes for me. And you.

All our Internet yapping doesn’t ultimately have a thing to do with Joe’s ultimate judgement, or Jerry’s for that matter. But like everyone else on this thread, I got sucked into it. This thing has a way like that.

I’m just glad to see there are at least a couple other posters on here who aren’t volunteering to escort Joe Paterno to the gates of Hades. That pleases me.

SRR,

Who is anyone to assign moral guilt? Get a grip. Not you, honey badger, or any other hateful person on this thread. I’ll tell you this, I’m extremely confident that Joe Paterno did more good than 99.99% of the people on this board who are crucifying him and that includes me and others defending him and his life’s work.

YM, you are a maestro. People still can’t learn from history even though people claim to read about Christ’s death and that is not to say he is the second coming.

SRR,

You also acknowledge the governor’s comment’s, correct?

Newy,

I don’t find Coach k’s comments insignificant or President Bush’s, or Phil Knight’s. It’s good to hear you do.

HB,

You are clearly confused as evidenced by your comments so there is no need to engage you any further.

Put allowing child rape on one side of a scale and winning football games on the other and tell me how many games it takes in your opinion to make the scales even.

Was it the 409th? The 400th? Does Bobby Bowden get a similar pass?

Please, enlighten us.

Groundhog Day-

Stats don’t lie? Then show me a stat that says Sandusky was not raping children and Joe Paterno did not know about it and I will change my opinion.

Who am I to assign moral guilt? A parent. A member of society and a mother fucking human being.

If we want shit like this to stop we have to be outraged. Otherwise scum like Paterno will continually put their personal glory over the lives of those who cannot defend themselves. .

To me, the question of Paterno’s responsibility at that point rests on what he was told and what he believed. What he knew or believed kind of determines what kind of "follow-up" was called for, no?

It’s impossible to believe that Sandusky’s retirement in 1999 wasn’t just a matter of Paterno telling him he wouldn’t be the HC. If anything, Paterno probably would have pushed for that and gotten it, based on their relationship and results. That turn of events doesn’t make sense based on their professional accomplishments together.

As Paterno’s responsibility, he may have fulfilled his legal duty as a “subordinate,” but how many people believe that Paterno effectively was a subordinate? A couple of years later, the president and AD came to his house with the intent of getting his resignation and were told off.

Groundhog Day & Texan Nick,

What happens on Paterno’s staff and in Penn St’s football facilities is Paterno’s responsibility.

Paterno unquestionably had the most power, ofiicially and informally, in the whole Penn St region.

Paterno employed, worked closely with, and won a ton of games due to Jerry Sandusky—-over 30 years.

Yes, Paterno did a lot of good things. Everyone has though. Hell, Sandusky has! You going to sit there and tell us about all of the great things Sandusky did, he just made 4-5 more mistakes thsn Paterno—-and we’re all just hatemongers for talking about everything (not just the good things) Sandusky did?!

Please.

 didn’t put gum on the teacher’s shoe, or pull the fire alarm, or

I just want to make sure I understand what a few of you are saying. If someone working for you, calls you to say he personally witnessed some very, very inappropriate behavior, between an adult male and a 10 year old boy, that involved both being naked, together, in a shower, in the PSU locker room (not exactly sure where it was), and the contact was close enough to bring into question the possibility of rape. Ok, so not only has he just reported the possible raping of a child on premises under your direct authority, but it involves a former employee, with a history of same inappropriate behavior in same such manner with other young boys. And you believe you are not sure how you would handle this situation? And you believe that reporting the incident to your superior, and not to the police, is adequate to satisfy your moral responsibility? And you believe that no one else, from the employee who witnessed the incident or anyone related to the school that was told, specifically the people he told to meet any legal responsibility (his superiors on up the chain of command), have any moral responsibility to report this to the police and ensure investigation is initiated. Is there anyone legally responsible for reporting the incident to the legal authorities, or ensuring that the appropriate actions are taken to determine if a formal investigation is necessary?
 
I have a pretty damn good idea how I would handle the situation.
What? Who? Where? When? Holy Fuck! (not exactly sure what Paterno’s favorite expletive in such case normally is) – and if I knew about his past – Holy Triple Fuck! Where is the boy now? Where is the man? Has anyone contacted the boys parents, Has anyone called the police? This happened When? Yesterday? WTF? And you’re just now telling me? And you didn’t call the police? Call them now! Right Fucking Now Son. Call Them.

I hope none of our children ever have to rely on people like you when they need it most. Wow.

I don’t know all the details, but I would imagine a lot of people at the university did. I find it very hard to believe Paterno did not know every detail about this. I don’t want to believe this, but it appears that Paterno took part in deciding to keep the incident as an internal one and not involve the appropriate legal authorities. And if the primary motivating factor for that decision was to avoid a black eye for the university, that is despicable. I didn’t realize PSU was a Catholic school – ok, that probably wasn’t called for. I just never would have believed Paterno would have acted this way. This just flies in the face of everything I ever heard or imagined from him. I am not condemning him. I am just shocked and disappointed. He was a great man who did a tremendous amount of good that should never be overlooked. But getting such an important decision this wrong just cannot be dismissed.

How can you let a man go free that is a threat to children?

Srr50: Agree with you, we’re talking about moral, not legal, responsibility. That said, I believe that what he knew, what he was told, and what he ultimately believed are THE determining factors in assessing that responsibility.

Honey Badger: You mean a person has to say outright that they find something disgusting before you’ll believe they do? That’s nice. I don’t view myself as defending Paterno’s handling of Sanduskey, as you put it. I feel like I can make a case for Paterno’s handling of HIMSELF. Now, further information might prove it’s not a good case. But I don’t feel a burning need to condemn people on partial information, as you apparently do.

“No one had keys or access unless Paterno wanted them to.” Are you really that naive? You think Paterno interviews every janitor? And you think an 80 year old man could or would be able to exert control to that extent? Grow up.

Newy25: “Child… Rape… He knew about it… Thats all I need to know.” If that’s really all you need to know, why are you wasting time on those of us who prefer NOT to simply curl up in the fetal position and let others do our thinking for us? The more serious an accusation, the MORE thought it requires, not less. Do you really want people turning off their brains just because the accusation is heinous?

Newy,

Post 1) McQueary never told Paterno he witnessed raping per both of their testimonies. Post 2) You should never sit in judgement especially since you weren’t there, don’t have all the facts, and you can’t say definitively what you would have done under similar circumstances (stats tell us so).

Bob,

Why didn’t the DA pursue charges in 1998? The fact is you don’t know why Sandusky retired in 1999. The fact is you don’t know why he retired and Paterno claims he knew nothing of a 1998 incident. Until evidence emerges, I’ll rely on 61 years of evidence on how he conducted his life and impacted others.

They could have fired him. They had the power to do so. PSU fans didn’t want him fired.

Video,

Shouldn’t that responsibility lie at the feet of the AD and the person in charge of the campus police? That is their JOB. If paterno was qualified for those jobs and had time for those jobs he would have taken up those as well. Perhaps he could have run for President of the US in addition to still coaching at Penn State.

ET,

It was reported to the person who oversaw the campus police who by the way has the same power to enforce the law as the state police per penn statutes. The AD, The president, and the person who oversaw the campus police all had the information and 2 of the 3 spoke to McQueary who by the way witnessed what he saw and is no child. You should read the oped, “Feeling Superior”. The stats tell us that you have no idea how you would have reacted.

ET,

Your final paragraph is filled with bigotry. That’ all I need to know about you. Some of you folks are unbelievable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/sports/ncaafootball/mcqueary-testifies-about-sandusky-assault.html?pagewanted=all

Groundhog Day, you keep saying that McQueary says he was vague in his report to Paterno. That’s incorrect. Per the link above, he testified (under threat of perjury) that he was very graphic in his report. Paterno was the one saying McQueary was vague.

So many questions- Why did Joe promote McQueary? Why not follow up on the allegation? Why let Sandusky stay around kids on Joe’s turf, after years of whispers and allegations? We do know that Paterno was a board member on The Second Mile, and involved in huge 9 figure development deals with other board members.

I think there are facets of character- being good, and doing good. Paterno was by almos any measure a good man. He adhered to rules, morals and ethics. However, when he was needed to do good, in a situation where doing so would publicly stain his entire life’s work, he failed to do so. This is not unique. The Greek tragedies Paterno loved so well are full of such situations (and they always ended the way this story will). Paterno was a good man, and he failed to do good in the Sandusky case. Those two statements are not irreconcileable.

As for how we should remember him, how much esteem we should hold him in, ask yourself- in your moment of greatest need and weakness, would you want your fate in he hands of a man who is generally a good man, or a man who will do good for you.

I don’t give a shit what any fucking stats you read say. I know I would have called the police. I am very careful of not starting a witch hunting. I’d use common sense and moral conscience to guide my decision. If what I outlined happened – I would do exactly as spelled out. If I’d personally witnessed something like that, I might even be on trial myself for going over and beating the man to death with a chair or something. Call yourself a coward and hide behind a survey, but don’t speak for me thank you very much.

http://media.pennlive.com/midstate_impact/other/Curley-Schultz-Hearing-Transcript.pdf

T,

The actual testimony above. He said he told paterno he witnessed something extremely sexual, but didn’t get into graphic details.

ET,

You would have beaten the shit out of him? Yes, you are feeling superior.

T,

I’ll ask the football player who was temporarily paralyzed who he would go to in his greatest time of need. He knows the man.

Newy,

Show me stats that says McQueary definitely saw raping. He is unsure and the fact that he heard no sounds from the little boy should speak volumes. People continually say that Paterno didn’t stop a raping…..

Outrage to defend the defenseless? How do you feel about abortion? After all, aren’t the unborn the most defenseless?

GH, that’s a great example, because we all know that a paralyzed psu football player would be out on the street if the HC doesn’t stand up for him. Certainly, no alums, boosters or teammates would do anything.

Seriously, that’s an example of what Boenhoffer called “cheap grace”.

Groundhog Day-

Are you serious? Use your brain my friend. You sound pathetic in your attempts to parse words and split hairs to defend him.

He’s one example of thousands who would say the same thing.

Really? I’m using mine. It’s others jumping to conclusions about what they think happened and what they think they would have done.

The big question is, what happened after Curley and Schultz received the information from Paterno and after speaking with McQueary.

I have no idea why Joe promoted McQueary. Could it have been he was a pretty good coach who happened to be the best recruiter on staff?

There were countless public figures involved in Second Mile including the current governor who chose not to actively pursue allegations against Sandusky as attorney general but then publicly vilified Paterno in November. A bit of hypocrisy?

 I can’t speak to the real estate deals you speak of regarding Paterno. Perhaps you can expand upon it. I do know Penn State and Second Mile were involved in transactions. You might be on to something regarding the President of the university……hmmmm.

Here ya go. Tell it, Ted.

http://www.rall.com/rallblog/2012/01/27/joe-patermo-rip