• Contact
Some of you may have already read this, as it was linked to the KUSports.com on Sunday. But if you haven’t, I recommend you go ahead and take a look at it. It’s raising an interesting question. Is it time for Mangino to go? Before even reading the linked post I’m sure most answered that question as soon as you read it.
Let me first go ahead and get the full disclosure out of the way. The author of that post is a good friend of mine and I spoke with him both before and after he wrote this piece. He did not ask my advice (he wouldn’t use it, nor does he even need it), but simply asked my opinion on the matter.
He makes a compelling argument as to why maybe it’s time for a change. Most of which is based on the future of the program. We all know where this program has been in the past, and I’m sure I speak for most when I say that I’m very thankful for where Head Coach Mark Mangino has taken us. But, as the author pointed out, can he take this program as far as us fans want it to go? Better yet, as far as Lew Perkins wants it to go?
And some will argue if what KU fans are seeing now is as good as it gets for KU football. A good team, somewhere between six and nine wins, an average bowl and then one year out of ten you might sneak up on somebody. You think that’s what The Lew wants? You think he’s adding a $34 Million expansion to the stadium to be an average football team that makes it to an average bowl every year?
This stretch of wins and bowl games has been great, there’s no doubt about that. The attendance levels can certainly vouch for it. But how long do these high attendance numbers continue if the program puts out a consistently average product? Probably not long as sports fans are, for the most part, very greedy. Kansas fans wouldn’t stand for being “average” in basketball, so why should we for football? Someone who commented on the linking of this post at KUSports may have said it best:
But the old excuse “we used to be terrible, so we should be glad to be average” is not good enough.
I said, sports fans are greedy, especially when they’ve tasted success and have lived on that greener grass.
The question still remains. Is it time for Mangino to go? To answer that you must first answer:
1. Can Mangino take us AND keep us at an elite level?
2. If not, what are you more afraid of, missing out on BCS bowl games or enduring 2-4 win seasons?
Big Head said:
November 4th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
I think you need to be able to answer this quesiton as well; Without Mangino, would Kansas football have had the success it has over the past few years?
Answer: Nope.
The problem with the idea of replacing MM with someone better is, well, those people just aren’t out there. You think a Saban, Miles, Carroll, etc are just going to ditch their gig and head to Lawrence? Will Muschamp wouldn’t even leave Texas for Auburn. KU would end up with a hot named coordinator, and even then, those work out about 50% of the time. KU is lucky that MM worked out.
With that said, I’d love for Mangino to bolt
Hiphopopotamus said:
November 4th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Clearly your friend has never had to manage people in his line of work.
Cast aside the obvious football argument that BH mentioned - we don’t have a slew of elite coaches lining up for the job - and just think about the message it sends to possible future employees… “Sure you completely turned around our program and took us to heights we dared not dream of, but that was TWO years ago. What have you done for me lately?”
Not exactly the message you want to be sending out to these elite coaches and players we should be able to recruit.
Pinwiz said:
November 5th, 2009 at 5:49 am
You need to consider that we were this close to being 6-0. Had things worked out better at the beginning of the OU and TT games, the results would have been more competitive. Some people see us as mediocre, I see us as not achieving our best.
We should demand more from our football program now. We’ve got the hunger, but people don’t seem to understand that it’s not something that happens instantly. It will take YEARS of growth to reach that elite status, and we’ll have painful years like this (hopefully further and further apart) while we try to get there.
If Mangino can honestly assess the situation and adjust to these setbacks, then we’re fine. If he just lets thing happen, get rid of him. However, one disappointing year shouldn’t require a change at the top.
Triston27 said:
November 5th, 2009 at 7:49 am
BH, I agree that KU football is nowhere without Mangino. There’s no doubt about that. But it helps that Lew has given him everything possible to succeed. They’ve helped each other out.
Hiphop, Unfortunately, it’s a “what have you done for me lately” world we live in. Firing him 2 years after such unthought of success would be a little much, but letting our team regress the way it has these last two years is equally unacceptable. I don’t think this program is capable of competing year in and year out for Big 12 supremacy. I do, however, expect it to compete for the North. And that has only happened once 8 years.
Pinwiz, You’re right that we were close to being 6-0 and probably had a decent shot at 8-0 if we ride that momentum. We’re also staring 5-4 and a possible 5-7 season in the face. We were close to being 8-0 right now, we were also close to sitting 3-5 right now. Thankfully we pulled out the games against So. Miss and ISU.
Personally, I don’t think it’s time to fire Mangino, but I wanted to link this piece to show you that other people are ready. After that Oklahoma game I took off my crimson and blue tinted glasses to see this team for what it is. Average, at best. Again, I’m not ready to fire Mangino, but I’m not giving him a lifetime pass for winning an Orange Bowl a couple mediocre seasons ago. And if I’m not giving him a lifetime pass, you bet your ass Lew isn’t.
The difficult part is this: If Mangino couldn’t give us a shot at the North this year with a talented group against a poor schedule (we may still have a shot, but not the way we’ve played all year), what makes you think he can do it any other time?
Ben F said:
November 5th, 2009 at 10:26 am
That article barely deserves a response (not worth registering on the coachesaid.com site, anyways). “Oh no, two teams that are better than us beat us, and we dropped a game to a worse team on the road because of some sloppy turnovers - let’s fire our coach who has been winning games (and coaching awards) and exceeding expectations nearly every step of the way!”
Phenomenal Smith said:
November 5th, 2009 at 11:25 am
I would love it if KU fired Mangino.
Triston27 said:
November 5th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
The problem Ben, is that OU and Tech shouldn’t be better than us this year. Not after OU’s injury woes and Tech losing their playmakers from last year. This was supposed to be one of the better teams in the country and it isn’t. That’s the concern. And while Mangino certainly exceeded expectations in 2007, he has done anything but in 2008 and ‘09.
If we were 8-0, which was possible, this wouldn’t be an issue. Conversly, if we were 3-5, also very possible, those calling for change would be heard everywhere. Instead, we’re pretty much right in the middle, which gives us a good chance to hear both sides of such an argument.
Ben F said:
November 5th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
OU shouldn’t be better than us this year? Sure they lost Bradford, which is a big deal, but Reesing’s dinged up as well. And at every other position OU has more talent from the starters on down (maybe not WR), and that’s because they’ve built a program that recruits with DECADES of quality football behind it.
I’m willing to listen to both sides of the argument, but my attention span for something as silly as moving on from Mangino because of a mediocre season is pretty short.
Hiphopopotamus said:
November 6th, 2009 at 6:39 am
I’m with you Ben.
I suppose if we were to go winless the rest of the way and finish 5-7, then maybe you start evaluating seriously next year. In the After Todd era.
But my original feelings remain the same:
1. I’m not convinced we could hire anyone better.
2. Even if we could, I think it sends a HORRIBLE message to the country, that even at a traditional basketball school with no history of football success, we’re going to expect great seasons year in and year out. And the minute that doesn’t happen, regardless of past accomplishments, you’re out. To Triston’s point, even if we were 3-5, I would not be calling for Mangino’s job yet.
And lastly…
Who is to say this team won’t finish out 9-5 with another bowl win? All that would take is sweeping the north, losing twice to Texas and winning our bowl. Pretty well within reach.
Triston27 said:
November 6th, 2009 at 9:18 am
I absolutely think we should have been better than OU. They were missing 2 of their top players in Bradford and Gresham. If we’re not going to beat them at home, while their injured, then when are we?
I think the main thing in the article was, CAN Mangino take us to an elite level? It’s hard to say, and I hope he can. I understand that it takes time to build a program, but when you have proven pieces in place you need to win with them. This year the pieces were in place and things seem to have been crumbling. This was the chance to show that you can compete with the south. Instead we’re struggling to become bowl eligible.
While 9-5 isn’t impossible, we’d really need to start playing great. And that is something we haven’t done all year. Not just in our losses, but in our narrow wins as well. UTEP may have been our best game.
Hiphopopotamus said:
November 6th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Do you really think we need to play “great” in order to beat KSU, NU & MU?
Better, yes. But I’ve seen far less than “great” performances beat all of those teams.
Triston27 said:
November 6th, 2009 at 9:46 am
2 of those games are rivalry games so I expect those teams to play better than their average game. Let’s say ksu, neb, and mu play “good” games. What makes you think KU’s “good” game is better than theirs? At the beginning of the year I think we’d all agree that KU’s good game was better. But again, when was the last time KU played a “good” game? I can only think of UTEP. And I suppose the last 35 minutes of the Duke game.
I’m not convinced our good game is better than theirs. From a talent standpoint I believe it is, but it’s been so long since we’ve seen it so who knows. Perhaps the less talented teams have negated our talent by improving their schemes. Sure seems that way.
Freddy D said:
November 7th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
First off, props to my Boy Dub Cee for giving his boy a shout out and showing my article a little love, but to all of you that immediately discounted my piece, said it wasn’t worth a response, questioned how could you fire the man that revived KU football, how do you feel now after watching KU get outcoached and outplayed for the fourth straight week? Mangino still the guy? Let me make one thing clear, the 12-1 season is over. The BCS money has been spent and it’s time to move on. Yes, Mangino has raised the profile of the football program, but he’s done so with three mediocre bowl games that KU needed late wins, even last-second in some cases, to get to those mediocre bowls. Mangino is a good, not great coach. I applaud what he’s done, but he’s done all that he can do. He’s a 6-8 win coach. Get over it folks. And let’s be honest for a second, if it wasn’t Mangino, Lew Perkins would’ve found somebody to get this program over the hump. And for those that think KU can’t get a better coach, get real, we’ve got the best AD in the country. I bet you didn’t think KU could get into a BCS Bowl without even making it’s own conference championship did ya? The Lew made it happen, and he’ll make it happen with a big name coach. Mangino already makes 2.3 million and you can get a good coach for that or 2.5, which The Lew can make happen.
Hiphopopotamus said:
November 8th, 2009 at 9:44 am
By all means, I can appreciate you wanting to defend what you wrote. But it’s never going to ring true with me.
Trust me, I think there are plenty of other coaches out there better than Mangino. And I’m firmly in the camp that thinks without Todd and 2007, he probably loses his job. I firmly believe he’s as much to blame as anyone for this season and I’m increasingly worried about where we go from here.
But given what happened in 2007 and that we went to and won a bowl game last year - the first time in Kansas history we’ve gone to two straight bowls - you simply can’t even consider firing him right now. He’s done too much for us and we would scare off any viable coaching candidate by essentially saying that your accomplishments mean nothing unless they’re duplicated year in and year out. There are very few schools that can hold their coaches to that kind of standard and we’re not one of them.
I will grant you that if we go winless the rest of the year, we can then use next year as an evaluation period. If the same trend continues, then we’ve really got to consider making a decision. But not a moment before.
sea_hawk said:
November 10th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I agree with Hiphop, it’s too early to think about firing the big guy. He has my full support.