Some guy named Michael Phelps won some events

“I consider three of his gold medals from these games to have been won in legitimate events, the freestyle events.”

That is just silly. The fact he swims more than one event and stroke makes his accomplishment even more amazing.

Yes, because no other swimmer has ever swum more than one stroke. Just fantabulous. If they had added a 4×50 medley relay and a 4×50 individual medley it would mean he is an even greater Olympian.

I was more amazed that there was a black dude, who made the U.S. swim team.

I couldn’t disagree more with your statement about none of the other strokes being legitimate. I’m guessing you’ve never been a competitive swimmer past maybe your summer neighborhood teams, right Huck?

Every different swimming stroke puts emphasis on a different kind of motion and muscle group from the body. Breast stroke is much more about correct form than it is about physical strength to create speed, while butterfly gets a bulk of the propulsion from the shoulders and arms. Freestyle? Combination arms and legs. The backstroke? Try keeping straight in a lane when your point of reference is the goddamn ceiling and moving your head slightly to the left or the right is going to cost you time. Now master all of those different aspects (granted, Phelps didn’t swim backstroke or breast stroke…there is a reason for this) and compete at the highest level of competition in the world.

I guess the only thing that should count in weight lifting is squats…because all that matters is that you lift the most weight, right? Who cares how you do it. You know what else is stupid? Triathlons. Why bother running and swimming any distance when you could bike the whole thing? It’s faster that way. Hell, the only real athlete is Lance Armstrong, then. Well, except for auto racers. They go fast too.

Give me a break.

Clearly, the only time you spend in the pool is with your floaties on and holding your nose shut before you go under water. Of course the other swimmers are capable of swimming more than one stroke, but most of them are not world-class in more than one stroke discipline - they are specialists who train extensively on one stroke. Stick to football and stay out of the pool.

What’s up with the Timestamps on the comments? Pretty sure I’m posting this post at 9:32 am, Central Standard Time. Pretty sure that’s not waht it’s about to say on my posted comment.

Ahhhh… the Olympics. That time every four years where every idiot with a remote becomes an elite expert analyst of sports neither he nor anyone else gives a fonk about at any other point.

And Bob Costas is just dreamy. Please, Bob… more melodrama. It can’t just be some little girl doing flips or some goofy dude swimming around a pool. No, no… this is world-changing stuff.

I did enjoy that piece on the anatomy of Phelps. Apparently, he has some physical advantages for swimming in that his torso is the size of a 6’8" guy, but his legs are the length of a 6’0" dude. Michael Phelps is built like a seal. Or, a caveman.

Congratulations on completely missing the point.

You know what would put emphasis on a different kind of motion and muscle group than sprinting? Crawling. So are you arguing that a 100 meter crawling race would be a good event? Just think about the sartorius strength required to run a 200 meter side shuffle. It’s just awe-inspiring to consider.

There are lots of ways to propel oneself in the water or on land. A race should be about getting from here to there the fastest. That’s it. Otherwise you are agreeing that a backwards race, among others, would be a legitimate track and field event.

Hell, the butterfly was born from people trying to get an advantage during breaststroke competitions. So swimming just added an event for it? That’s silly. The equivalent would be if they had added a Fosbury Flop High Jump event and still kept a Straddle Jump and Scissor Jump event.

Triathlons are awesome, by the way. A race is a race.

Kristin Otto is the greatest female Olympian of ALL TIME!!!

You know, assuming “she” wasn’t on so many drugs that she’s now Kristopher Otto.

YOU COMMIE BASTARD!!!

So in track, it seems redundant that they run a 100 m dash and a 110 m hurdles, right? I mean, all we’re looking for is someone to get from A to B with the fastest time - why throw in those crazy things to jump over?

Congratulations on not knowing what the fuck you’re talking about.

I’ve seen the light. I propose that the sidestroke is added back to the Olympic games and that the dog paddle is introduced. Additionally, the Trudgen stroke should be brought back but as a separate event. These all require different techniques and forms and exercise different muscle groups in different ratios.

Because that is what determines if something is a real race. Variation in muscle groups that are exercised. It is obvious, of course, that specializing in each stroke will require years of hard work if a swimmer wants to become Olympic champion. So let’s add ’em.

So in track, it seems redundant that they run a 100 m dash and a 110 m hurdles, right? I mean, all we’re looking for is someone to get from A to B with the fastest time - why throw in those crazy things to jump over?

You keep getting worse. There’s nothing wrong with hurdling events. All competitors go over the same course as fast as they can. Feel free to add obstacles in the water that the competitors have to go over or under.

The only problem with the different strokes is that these swimming events are the only “races” in the world that place specific limitations on how the competitors may use their own strength and skill to propel themselves as quickly as possible.

Well, other than speedwalking. You a big fan of speedwalking? According to your theories it’s a legitimate event. Fascinating stuff, that.

Imagine how dominant the USA could be in the 400-meter skipping relay. Awesome.

The gayest sport I’ve seen is Men’s Synchronized Diving.

wow, swimmers are some angry, bitter people.

I’d be curious to know what other events you consider to be completely irrelevent. Why throw the shotput at all? We toss the Javelin. Amos already mentioned the hurdles. And you think Triathlons are awesome, but how is that different than an IM? Why do we have the Long Jump when the Triple Jump covers twice the distance? Again, back to weigh lifting…I’m guessing that we can do without some of those events as well, right, since muscle groups and ratio and forms don’t matter to you much.

I’m just certain what baseline criteria you use to judge all these things and form your opinion for valued and valueless.

I’m sure everyone thinks there are stupid events. Hell, I think there’s one now where you cross country ski and then at the end you do target shooting…the Biathlon. I don’t get it. But I also think that you have to be in the serious minority of people who think that the other strokes have no value in an Olympic games.

*curious what baseline criteria

You don’t think the hurdle gates are specific limitations on how a competitor uses their own strength and skill to propel themselves over the 110 m race course as fast as they can?

I have no problem being in the minority. I’ve spent my whole life like that.

Rimshot

And this has nothing to do with being irrelevant or valueless. Well, maybe a little. I mean are you seriously going to bust out with the breaststroke if you see a shark coming toward you? No, I’m pretty sure that would turn into a “freestyle” race pretty damn quickly. So I guess you’re right, freestyle does have more “value” than the other events.

As for your listed events, I’ll let you know whether or not they meet with my approval in their current form.

Shot put - Not approved. Could be if they removed the requirement for resting it on the neck and pushing it straight out. Unless the “safety” argument for these rules is accurate. Then it’s okay. Don’t know enough about the history of the shot put event.

Javelin - Approved. They all throw the same object (essentially because there are parameters) and whoever sends it the furthest wins.

Hurdles - Approved. All competitors cover the same course as quickly as possible. If this were swimming they would add an event where you’re required to alternate your takeoff foot, and another event where your required to land on the same foot you took off with. And maybe one where two-footed jumps are required.

Triathlon - Approved. Same course, same equipment for same distances. Perhaps they should add a new event where you have to swim the breaststroke.

Long Jump - Approved. Who can jump the furthest.

Triple Jump - Not approved. Could be approved if it was simply who can cover the most ground in three consecutive jumps. Hop/skip requirement is rejected.

Weightlifting - I agree with you here. They could have multiple events to see who could lift the most weight to a certain height, etc. But requiring certain forms to lift the weight is rejected.

Biathlon - Approved. Same equipment, same course.

Huckleberry’s point is actually pretty intersting, from a philosophical standpoint. But as someone who spent the greater part of their early childhood in the water and training in swimming events, I find this particular take to be almost personally offensive. But the point of view IS pretty interesting and worthy of consideration.

You don’t think the hurdle gates are specific limitations on how a competitor uses their own strength and skill to propel themselves over the 110 m race course as fast as they can?

No. Because they’re not. All competitors have to go over them. If one of the runners felt like doing a front flip over the hurdles that would be legal. Stupid, but legal. Unless it would be illegal in which case the hurdle events are also hereby rejected.

This is important stuff. And it’s a really simple rule. It’s only a real race if all competitors are covering the same course and are allowed to manipulate their bodies however they want in order to propel themselves as quickly as possible. Regulations regarding the equipment that’s allowed, staying in your lane, and all that other stuff is fine.

Well thank you for that last comment, I think.

I’m not saying that the different strokes aren’t difficult or skilled. I’m saying they’re not a real race. And the fact that they exist gives swimmers more chances to stockpile medals than track athletes and other Olympians. So calling a swimmer the greatest Olympian of all time just because of his medal count doesn’t work, IMO.

Well, the forms are pretty different, and require a different skillset. Whether equipment is involved or not, it’s a mastery of completely different forms, no different if someone won gold medals in archery, ski shooting, and pistol shooting, in my opinion. Just because they all take place in a pool doesn’t mean they’re not different. The things I mentioned above all take place on a range and require hitting a target. There’s nothing stopping anyone from mastering all of those, just like there’s no stopping Phelps from mastering all strokes…which he hasn’t and doesn’t. But he’s good enough to complete in the IM. It’s impressive.

To modify your shark analogy, if a bear was coming after me, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t use a bow and arrow, or a pistol to blast away at his ass. I’d use a shotgun. But that doesn’t mean that those other disciplines aren’t without their own levels of merit.

The 100, 200, and 500 or whatever running events are all running. There’s nothing stopping someone from training in all of them, as well as training in the long distance races as well. But no one does all, because it requires different training and different specializations to maximize potential. I think there is a lot of value in the fact that Phelps can “stockpile” medals by mastering many of those disciples well enough to be the best in the world in many of those events. Because he’s under the same limitations as the rest of the people in the pool as well in regards to strokes. It’s still an equal playing field.

*Skeet shooting

I think the fact that Phelps passed Spitz and Otto holds the women’s record for most gold medals at an Olympics lends weight to my argument. That criterion is clearly tilted in the great swimmers’ favor compared to track athletes and others.

For example, Phelps never swims more than 200 meters. He’s not winning the 800 meter or 1500 meter swimming races. Maybe he could if he trained for them, maybe he couldn’t. The point is that there are only 4 events where a competitor will go 200 meters and below available to a track athlete. The 100 meters, 200 meters, 4×100 meter relay, and 110 meter hurdles. There are 13 such events in swimming.

And yes, I realize that 200 meters in the water is a much higher endurance event than 200 meters on land. It’s just an illustration of the number of events available where you’d be competing in the same distance range, meaning the endurance versus speed ratio is roughly the same in all the events.

No, the runners don’t have to go over them. No penalty for running through the hurdles, other than for most people it takes more time to do it that way. If someone could win the hurdles without jumping over them would that be OK? The fact you don’t see athletes running both the 100m dash and 110m hurdles speaks to the same specific and specialized training that swimmers engage in for the 4 respective stroke disciplines.

Your real beef is whether a swimmer winning 8 gold medals in one Olympics deserves to be called the greatest Olympian ever. Objectively, I don’t see how you could argue against it. The simplest measure is how many gold medals the competitor has won. That is what the OLYMPICS are measured by. What I think you’re really getting at or have a gripe with is lumping “greatest Olympian” with “greatest (Olympic) athlete.” That is purely subjective, as there is no standard to compare Olympic athletes across events and disciplines.

One last point specific to track - if Carl Lewis’ goal was to win the most gold medals in the history of the Olympics, and to do that he needed to find more events, what was stopping him from trying to run the 400m, 110m hurdles, do the high jump, etc.? He probably wasn’t skilled enough to qualify in those events, as his training time didn’t allow for it. Nothing was stopping him from trying, though. He trained for sprinting and long jump, and was the best in the world during his prime, but didn’t seem to have the aptitude for other events on a world-class level.

Phelps swam the 400 IM.

Well, I understand your point. But my initial contention with your statement was that you felt the other swimming strokes are without merit, to which I greatly disagree. If you want to feel that swimming is weighted for a high medal count, that in my opinion is a completely different discussion than what my intital problem was with your statement.

You’re right, there are 13 events of 200 or less in swimming. But it’s also fair to point out that Phelps hardly swam in all of them. He didn’t participate in Breast or Backstroke pieces. But you’re flat out mistaken when you say he never swam more than 200 meters. He swam and won the 400 IM.

No, the runners don’t have to go over them. No penalty for running through the hurdles, other than for most people it takes more time to do it that way. If someone could win the hurdles without jumping over them would that be OK?

Are you arguing for me now? Thank you for proving my point. Yes, it would be OK, and in fact it would be perfectly legal. And you know what they would do if that happened? They would make the hurdles sturdier and then everyone would still be allowed to get from A to B as fast as they could.

As for the rest of your post, I don’t think you had read my last one before that. I addressed that. There are 13 events 200 meters and below available to swimmers and only 4 available to track athletes.

Not only that, but aren’t track athletes limited in the number of events they’re allowed to enter? Does anyone know?

Yes, I forgot the 400 IM. Which he is great at.

You’d make the hurdles sturdier, and further limit the way to traverse the 110m. Then you’d have to go over them rather than through - seemings pretty limiting to me.

Running in a straight line without obstacle is the fastest way to get from A to B. Running and jumping requires different form, training, and skill than just running straight.

Swimming frestyle is the fastest way (for most) to get from A to B. Swimming fly requires different form, training, and skill than free. Doesn’t mean fly is not a legit race.

For the love of Michael Phelps, you are not good at reading comprehension.

My objection to calling them a race is that the competitors are limited in what they’re allowed to do to propel themselves over the established course. Having to go over something is part of the course. It’s not a limitation on how they manipulate their body in order to complete the course. You seem to be the only one that can’t grasp this.

You’re not nearly the only one that doesn’t agree with what I’m saying as far as it being a real race. But you’re the only one struggling with the basic concept of the argument.

And I think you should say swimming front crawl is the fastest way for most. The point of the freestyle being the only real race in swimming (in my opinion) is that there are no limitations on the stroke itself. If you want to swim the butterfly in a freestyle race, have at it. It’s legal.

I understand what you’re saying just fine - I just don’t agree.

You’re gonna have to reevaluate on the long jump. They outlawed doing a somersault in midair several years back…. the people that did it thought they were more aerodynamic.

Valid safety concerns or capricious vanity? If safety-related then I let it slide. If not, then the long jump in its current form is no longer approved.

Amos -

So you agree that a backwards dash and a side shuffle on the track would be legitimate events, right?

Now there’s two of them.

There are plenty of dumb events in the Olympics - two more wouldn’t matter to me. And if you won 9 golds in the backwards dash, side shuffle, crawling, and ass drag I daresay you would be the greatest Olympian/internet tough guy of all time. Good luck cross-training for those ass dragging and crawling events. Oh the athletic role model and endorsement treasure you’d be.

How about Carl Lewis and Michael Johnson teaming up in the 100m and 200m three-legged races? That would be totally sweet. Those male gymnasts would probably have the quicks for the wheelbarrow races, too.

If it makes you guys feel any better he was worse to be around during the winter Olympics. Mention curling, pansies.

I still can’t fathom how he considers the Biathlon wortwhile, but Butterfly is fucking stupid.

Michael Phelps accomplishments are worthy of all the hype and press in my opinion.

Whether he is the greatest Olympian of all time is clearly subjective. I would cast my vote for Carl Lewis. He was not only the fastest at the 100m and 200m sprints, but also a completely different discipline in the Long Jump. That would be like Michael Phelps winning a gold medal in diving to go along with his swimming medals. Two of Carl’s World Records still stand after 16 years (4 × 100 and 4 × 200 relays), and he was the top long jumper in the world for 15 years.

Not to mention his burgeoning singing career

Phelps was cloned in a GE lab the week it acquired NBC in 1986.

22 years later the harvest has been reaped Smithers!

What’s not to understand about the Biathlon w.r.t. the current discussion? It’s a fair race where all the competitors use the same equipment, travel over the same course, shoot at the same targets, and are timed, i.e., no subjective judging.

The competitors are not required to push with their skis in any particular style. They just go. I’ve already explained why I don’t consider the butterfly a real race. I’ve also explained that the butterfly was born out of competitors trying to modify the breaststroke to win. So they made a new stroke.

Although, the requirement in the biathlon that some of the shooting must take place from the prone position and some must take place from the standing position concerns me. Perhaps it isn’t approved after all. Seems to me that if I’m supposed to shoot a target a certain distance away with an approved weapon that I should be able to do it however I want.

An interesting dilemma. The biathlon is hereby rejected until they remove the prone/standing requirement.

I’d like to see the swimmers weighted down with 500 pounds of lead and then tossed in the pool and the first one to walk to the other end and survive gets the gold. those that drowned would be awarded medals posthumously based on total distance covered.

Couple of notes:

The origin of the military pentathlon is that these events (cross country running, equestrianism, fencing, rapid fire pistol shooting, and swimming) are all things that a military messenger might be required to do to deliver a message. The biathlon is modeled after the activities of Nordic ski troops, who might be called to ski to a location, shoot the enemy, and then ski away.

If the Olympics ever dropped them, the militaries might still preserve them, say in the CISM Games. I think it might be cooler to update them instead. In the pentathlon, ultimate fighting could replace fencing, if you could figure out a way to award points. Autocross could replace equestrian. Maybe require them to start the run with a parachute drop?

Poor Huck simply won’t recognize that Michael Phelps is the clutchest athlete evar and that his gold medals in the relays were made possible by the great team chemistry he created.

Talk to me when Phelps can swim a mile or two and win that going away, as well.

I agree there are way too many events at the olympics. Not sure why you got your carl lewis commemorative undies twisted up hearing phelps get called the greatest olympian considering the slate of events. the mythical greatest olympian title says more about the state of the games than it does about anything else.

The coverage (knob-slobbing) by the media over phelps seems no more disproportionately applied than the profusion of drool applied to anything else in the summer games. they may as well have the 200 meter crawl, would anyone notice?

I’d be down for the olympics being worth the ink (pixels) of a news cycle. I wanted to see who won judo and scrolled past the listing for women’s single handed dinghy europe - preliminaries. I’m not going to hate on one handed lady dinghiers, or on people winning medals for horses jumping over shit decorated as other shit, or on phelps for winning the same event in 100 meter intervals.

I think the more fundamental conflict isn’t about whether or not phelps is teh greatest evar!, it’s about how much silliness you can tolerate in something that that takes itself so seriously.

Now how do you imbed the youtube clip of the monty python sketch of the village idiot races.

It’s all a conspiracy anyway.

http://www.001ofasecond.com/

Awesome website.

That guy has stumbled upon the greatest conspiracy of our time. Although it is definitely interesting that FINA refuses to release the images.

So today Usain Bolt won the 200 meters in world record time. He won every single individual running event available (both of them) between 100 and 200 meters. And his team will be heavily favored to win the only other race where individuals travel that far, the 4×100m relay. He also set the world record in each event while there have been no other world records set in running events at these games out of eight completed events.

Michael Phelps won 4 out of the 9 individual and 7 out of the 12 total swimming events available between 100 and 200 meters. He set 7 world records, while there were 19 world records set by other swimmers in the 26 other events. In several events there were multiple competitors/teams that broke the old world record at the same time.

But let’s keep saying Phelps is the greatest Olympian because he has 4 times as many events in his distance range.

It’s a conspiracy I tell you.

Don’t even start comparing Usain Bolt to Michael Phelps until Bolt wins gold in the 100-meter powerwalk.

Since when does being the best sprinter make you the greatest olympian? Isn’t there some decathlete you could compare to phelps?

Or at least a sprinter who won medals at more than one Olympics?

So being the best land sprinter doesn’t make you the greatest Olympian but being the best water sprinter does?

Bolt vs. Phelps is a much more valid comparison than a decathlete and Phelps. Unless Phelps starts dabbling in diving. And water polo.

I agree on the multiple Olympics. Which is why I mentioned Carl Lewis previously.

So I will bring this back up in four years.

I’m not as impressed that Bolt won both events - it is more impressive how he did it. In the 200m race in particular and according to ESPN, “he beat the second guy across the line by 0.52 second — about four body lengths — the largest margin of victory in an Olympic 200 since the first race in 1900.” When do we find out Bolt’s PED cocktail of choice? ;-)

With regard to their respective peers, Bolt and Phelps are in the same class and roll call doesn’t take very long.

I completely agree with that. The way I see it, Michael Phelps is the greatest Olympic swimmer of all time. My only issue is that the nature and setup of Olympic swimming is so completely different than Olympic track or Olympic anything else that you can’t compare across disciplines. Calling him the greatest Olympian of all time doesn’t work for me just because of that.

Meanwhile, Usain Bolt has clearly had the greatest sprinting performance in Olympic history. Nothing more, nothing less.

My money’s on Paavo Nurmi, though.

I think Charles Barkley was probably the greatest Olympian of all time.

“Seems to me that if I’m supposed to shoot a target a certain distance away with an approved weapon that I should be able to do it however I want.

An interesting dilemma. The biathlon is hereby rejected until they remove the prone/standing requirement."

Although I’ve found myself agreeing with a surprisingly large number of your arguments, I would actually disagree with this.

Unlike swimming, where the form differences are purely arbitrary, standing vs. prone actually has a basis in reality. The latter type of shot is purely about accuracy since the ground helps you steady your aim, and it is also the preferred method of shooting when in the open to reduce the amount of your body exposed as a target. The former type of shot requires more balance and steadiness while forcing the shooter to stay moving when he/she doesn’t have time to get prone.

While you make an interesting argument, I can not in good conscience agree with you as you are a Sooner. So as a compromise I offer that the IOC can add obstacles between the biathletes and the targets which inherently necessitate standing or prone shooting without explicitly requiring the same.

More seriously, I would completely agree with you if the biathlon shooting segment weren’t completely about accuracy. The standing shots are based completely on accuracy just the same as the prone shots. Maybe they could add a time component to the standing shots which would better reflect real life.

If being a pedantic douche was were an Olympic sport, you would be considered the greatest Olympian of all time.

Corrected by Huckleberry

I are gold!

The insane geniuses at HCwDB beg the question:

Is Michael Phelps a douchebag?

I’m leaning towards ’bag.