Report: Mack Brown to Get Contract Extension

What do you make of this SRR?

It certainly heads off any negative recruiting other schools might do about the status of Mack’s job. So we’ve got that going for us.

Helps recruiting, thats for sure. Mack could have them back in a championship game in another year or two if some of these recruits pan out. Makes me think Mack is raising his replacement.

What about his assistant coaches? I’d like to see some of this “financial love fest” spread their way.

Something tells me financial considerations will not be the reasons assistants like manny diaz leave Texas.

Hes either getting a head gig or a raise.

Does this vibe with the get the program back on its feet and retire vibe we’d been getting? Or was that just me?

let the whining about and bashing of Mack Brown begin….. in 3…. 2…. 1….

What’s the buyout about?

Eight years is a long time in football.

I don’t think Mack deserves an extension, but obviously the buyout here is quite low. This fends off negative recruiting without really constraining the university financially, so I guess it makes sense.

It’s mainly optical I would imagine. There is almost zero chance he is coaching that long.

The six million dollar man - if he lasts that long.

Any guesses on who might beat Mack to $6 mill a year in the college game? Or even which program could get there out of desperation (such as Florida with another two years of 7-5)?

Helps recruiting? How? I thought his current contract goes thru 2016?

It’s an amazing job where you can get a $2 mil raise, follow it with a losing season and an average season, and in response be rewarded with automatic raises of $100K and an extension until you’re 70 years old.

If you want to help recruiting, win championships.

Why? Are other schools or the NFL threatening to steal Mack? I haven’t heard of a single team expressing interest in him. What does that make his true market value?

Anyone hired Greg Davis yet? Mack used to always tell us what a sought after OC he was.

The six million dollar man – if he lasts that long.

Looks like he’s already the $6,000,000 man: six months’ notice ($2,600,000 salary) and the buyout ($3,500,000)… hey that’s six million dollars++.

If they wanted to can him before the new deal - assuming the existing one has no buyout(?) - it’d cost a lot more: half of the remainder is considerably more, right now… unless the Mike Sherman Finesse could be run again… say, where is ol’ Mike, these days? Pinin’ for the fjords was he? Yep, I can still hear the agy cheering him on… “Our bleedin’ coach is bloody DEMISED, mate!”

Announcement was to give the perception of stability.
Major will be head coach by fall 2016 or he’s GONE.
Harsin will end up as head honcho for Pac 12 school.
Because of Major, recruiting will continue to hummmm along.
National title games 2013-2014-2015
Hook’Em
TCU & Longhorns reignite slober-knocker rivalry of the 1960’s

What? Are you kidding me? Why are we laying out a greater financial obligation to this guy when it is becoming increasing clear that he is behind the curve? This is why we are the laughing stock of the land thieves class and the sheep screwers. Mack Brown may be a nice guy. He may be ethical. But he doesn’t warrant top national dollar level pay. Saban may be a jerk. Miles may be a poseur. But they both produce national championship contenders. We produce teams that need rationales to be considered contenders. Time to smarten up.

You guys realize Saban’s contract goes for another 3 years or so. I guess we need that stability though, you know, since his contract already went through till 2016. And yes it’s more like a $6M buyout. 3.5 plus 2.6 for the reaming 6 months. What does a conference championship get you, Prima nocta with rights with Erin Andrews?

I see nothing surprising or distressing in this at all. It seems like a perfectly normal and sensible business/image/stability move for all concerned.

And it took a full 17 posts before we got the OMG Mack Sucks! obligatory reaction. (though a few minor snipes appeared before that)

YES!!!!!

If his existing contract had no buyout then the proposed extension is only positioning by Deloss & the Board of Regents. It combats rumors of firing or retirement, gives the appearance of commitment & stability, allows the rebuilding to continue under current plan & allows for orderly exit by either party. If his current contract has no buyout clause I see this as the University’s defined option if the current plan isn’t working. $3.5 million is chump change for the financial monster Mack has built.

Nothing personal, lurker - but there’s something in the whole “he’s making $5.2 million a year, but we need to add $100,000 a year per year to that for reasons that have nothing to do with a merit-based raise” that makes me wonder about our business sensibilities in this country in 2012.

You can make perfectly reasonable arguments for it - just as Wall Street made perfectly reasonable arguments for their retention bonuses. It still amounts to ridiculously wealthy people having their pay bumped to keep up appearances, no matter how the organization’s been faring lately. Just seems weird to me.

To me, the real story is the buyout provision. Looks like the Regents’ main purpose here is to make it easier to oust Mack in the event of lack of performance——and dress it up with raises and extensions to misdirect onlookers, which worked.

Speaking of long term, anyone understand what we are doing at Linebacker in this recruiting class?
I see 2 undersized Mike’s, a Will or Sam, and a Mike/DE.

If people really believe extending the contract is only about appearances and that Mack will leave on his own well before the end of it then why would Mack even agree to the extension. If he has no buyout right now, and he plans on leaving in the next 2-3 years at most, then why would he agree to a contract extension that does nothing for him but add a buyout for the University. If he’s really leaving that soon then he’ll never see the money on the extension.

And the whole notion that this is about helping with recruiting is ludicrous. Whatever rumours may have been out there this year it hasn’t kept us from putting together a top 5 class and being in on some big name OOS recruits down to the last minute. And we didn’t lose out on those recruits because of fears of instablity. If rumours about Mack being on his way out start to hurt recruiting the cure is quite simple. WIN. If this program had been winning the last couple of years the rumours wouldn’t have been out there. It’s the on field struggles of the program that have caused the rumours, not some ridiculous notion that Mack’s contract isn’t long enough.

What all of this smells of to me is that Mack may not be so willing to happily mosey off into the sunset in a couple of years even if we do well. And Dodd’s is more than willing to enable him as long as the dollars keep rolling in. We may be looking at our own Bowden or Paterno scenario.

I’m a fan of Mack Brown and hate to hear bashing from other Longhorns. On one hand, he has brought Texas back to relevance. Pretty important for someone like me that remembers the mid-90’s when I was on campus. On the other hand, mediocre seasons, regardless of the cause, are not acceptable. Texas should never lose more than 2 games unless about 100 things go wrong (injuries, suspensions, etc..).

BTW, ask anyone that does not support Texas what they think about Brown and they will tell you that Texas is the most underachieving school in the country. That really bothers me.

Speaking of long term…

Let’s encourage discussion by simply deleting controversial posts.

Or maybe we should just pull the plug on the whole thing and forward BC and ’Cosm linkage straight to IT?

I don’t see how agreeing to a buyout in the guise of an unrealistic extension can be viewed as a bad thing.

Well it’s official. The Big Cigar report from JS has now gone behind the paywall on IT.

I don’t see how agreeing to a buyout in the guise of an unrealistic extension can be viewed as a bad thing.

Why would Mack think he needs an unrealistic extension. Unless it’s not unrealistic to him to keep coaching that long….or longer.

I’m assuming the extension just makes it clear that Mack has job security to go about the rebuild. As rich as we are, a hefy buyout sends the message that he’s here on his own timetable.

Nickel - I apologize up front if I’m being too argumentive, but….

just makes it clear that Mack has job security to go about the rebuild

Makes it clear to whom? Based on this year’s recruiting class the recruits don’t need to hear it. If we keep playing like crap it won’t matter how secure he is recruiting will start to suffer. If we start winning big again the recruits will keep coming without the extrension (Saban has no trouble with only about 3 years left on his contract).

a hefy buyout sends the message that he’s here on his own timetable

That’s my concern. That his timetable may start looking like Bowden’s, or even Paterno’s.

Ah, the Big Cigar, known for being 65% accurate. Has a better average though than the National Enquire.

Mack will not step down. He will continue to make $100,000 a month for as long as he possibly can. What is the reason for our rebuilding?

Part of the reason for this raise of course is that the money is just there, and it keeps sloshing around coaches salaries as they grow and grow and grow…. the excess profits from the NCAA cartel have to go somewhere; and that somewhere is in the pockets of the administrators & coaches rather than the athletes that people actually pay to see, who are forbidden to accept even the smallest trifles.

Agree with the misdirection. They just extended his contract and slashed his buyout. The length of the contract is meaningless when the buyout is so small, relatively.

The buyout was slashed? Well that’s certainly interesting.

Nunna Yo Bizness: I was thinking it made it clear to media, recruits, and to Mack. If they slashed his buyout that sends quite a different message though.

So difficult to get one of these.

Arriviste: That’s true.

The fire Mack Brown! crowd often annoys me with their irrational whining about Mack’s performance, which they frequently evaluate with the eye of an entitled fan rather than an objective observer.

However, the pay of coaches in football is pretty ridiculous and the CEO strategy of paying top dollars to the big guy to send the message to prospective head coaches that we pay top dollars is not a strategy or conviction that I think serves the university or the country particularly well.

Yes, Mysterious Package and Nunna Yo Bizness are stupidly mis-reading this, perhaps on purpose because they want to be angry.

Mack gets an extension until 2020. That establishes his security. His buyout is reduced from the original contract ($5 million per year, times 4 years equals $20 million) to $6 million. If Mack announced he were retiring today, the AD would gift him $6 million without the new contract, so he is gaining nothing.

The contract actually protects UT from a Paterno/Bowden like spiral of chasing a “good final season”. If the program doesn’t turn around, the school buys Mack out for less than the old contract. This looks like a good move for the school. It gets to emphasize stability, whle gaining assurances.

Any chance, just hypothetically,…
Maybe I, I mean mack, ..maybe mack was promised AD and this extension is part of the “AD-in-waiting” package?

The “Mack is CEO-style coach” metaphor is, I think, largely to blame for the belief amongst Longhorn fans that this means he is our future AD. The business metaphor is just too confusing I guess.

As long as Dodds is around, Mack is not taking over as AD. If he stays with the university it will be in a Macro-Bill Little type role with LHN.

Personally I don’t believe that Mack will be the AD. The demands of that job just don’t seem to fit with his skill set. I do think Texas woudl be stupid not to find a way to utilize Mack’s skill set even after he retires, so it will be interesting to see if that is only through the LHN, or in an even larger role.

Yes, Mysterious Package and Nunna Yo Bizness are stupidly mis-reading this

Just wondering, if it’s so obvious that I’ve stupidly misread this let me know why it is that Saban and others don’t need the “stability” of a contract that goes 9 years into the future to succeed.

NYB, let me help you. Alabama is not Texas. Mack Brown is not Nick Saban. IOW, the circumstances are different. In my prior post I explained why the deal makes sense. You are purposely ignoring that in order to stir up crap.

also bama has won 2 MNC’s in 3 years…

I agree that the buyout is the real story. The contract is meaningless.

The 100k/yr raise may be a lot compared to your yearly raise, but it’s less than 2% per year. I think the UT football franchise will appreciate faster than 2% per year. Believe me, Mack probably doesn’t even feel the extra padding in his wallet. I think this is posturing more than anything else. It’s a great move for UT, actually. It gives your coach the appearance of job stability. And with a cheap buyout clause, you’re not tying yourself down financially.

The memory of some posters here are shorter than parts of their anatomy. Just 24 months ago Mack was 3:02 from winnng his second MNC with a flawed freshman QB at the helm of a QB intensive team. Some posters act like it has been a thousand years since Mack had a winner. Give Saban his due, he is very good, but remember his last teams at LSU and his first teams at Alabama, or any of his Michigan State teams. They guy is not God.

Texas will be back in the hunt for the MNC in 24 months or less, I think 11 is about right, and Mack will be in control.

Mack does it honestly and with class.

TTR has this right — the extension combined with the buyout helps to make sure a Bowden/Paterno scenario does not exist.

Anyone who thinks that Bill Powers and Deloss Dodds would approach Mack — hat in hand to suggest that it is time to retire only to be told to get off his lawn —is delusional.

Mack’s job is to make the football good. Dodds and Powers wield the power in issues like LHN, scheduling, conference alignment, etc.

The number of people who think the University of Texas operates in the same manner as he likes of States Florida and Penn is amazing.

For those saying that this did not have to be done, because it obviously was not affecting recruits, you must be forgetting the multitude of times in the last few months when sources cited Mack’s retirement plans or that he was being forced out. Whether he admits it or not, Jesus was right in the middle of that.

And anytime the University and the AD have to answer reporters’ questions about whether or not Mack will be around next year, I would say this is an issue that is out there that needs resolution. I believe Dodds even made mention that the rumors were being put out there to affect recruiting.

In my prior post I explained why the deal makes sense. You are purposely ignoring that in order to stir up crap.

I actually have addressed thos points in my other posts, but let me specifically do so with regard to your actual post.

Mack gets an extension until 2020. That establishes his security.

Establishes his security for who? The only parties I can see that it might matter to are recruits. But this year’s class shows it’s not an issue. The real issue for recruits will be whether we win or not, not whether Mack has 4 more years or 9 more.

The contract actually protects UT from a Paterno/Bowden like spiral of chasing a "good final season". If the program doesn’t turn around, the school buys Mack out for less than the old contract.

Buyout amounts were never the problem with guys like Bowden and Paterno. The problem was that the schools felt like they’d look like shit for pushing out these revered coaches before they were ready to go. Of course the coaches felt a sense of entitlement based on what they’ve done so that they should be able to stay as long as they want to chase that last big one without accountability. Problem is, does the extension part of this indicate Mack is starting to think in terms of staying with no end in mind.

I’m done with this thread. It amuses me though that these blogs are praised for the way people can express differing opinions with rational in depth discussion and tolerance. But on this topic, it doesn’t matter that I’m not directly criticiizing anyone and I’m laying out a detailed and reasoned discussion, I’ve stupidly misread things and just “stirring up crap”. How dare I not praise all aspects of this extension without pause or reservation.

Praise this extension right this minute.

Has anyone read Mondays In The Humidor With The Big Cigar on IT?

Nunna, you don’t really know how the recruits were assured of Mack’s tenure so it’s silly to claim that this recruiting class didn’t need something like an extension. Also, it could be a way to head off future recruiting tactics that were coming into play against us after this class was locked up.

And Mack is not Paterno or Bowden. His following is not nearly as intense. UT Football is a powerful brand in and of itself. Penn St. and FSU were brands that were inseparable from Bowden. UT football is not inseparable from Mack Brown.

Since recruiting has evolved or de-evolved to a point that schools are evaluating kids two years ahead of high school graduation I guess the biggest value in this extension for recruiting is it clears up for those kids in Pop Warner Mack’s future at Texas.

Mack Brown is a good coach. He is not a great coach.

Yes, Mack got us out of the McWilliams/Mackovic mess. And we are extremely thankful. But how many coaches out there do you think could also have done that with our resources and access to high school talent? I can name at least 20.

Go to any team’s message board in the country and you will see posts that say our football program is the most underachieving, and our HC the most overpaid, in the nation. How can every college football fan in the country (except some of ours) be off in their analysis?

Conference Champion: Let’s hear that list of 20 names.

“The fire Mack Brown! crowd often annoys me with their irrational whining about Mack’s performance, which they frequently evaluate with the eye of an entitled fan rather than an objective observer.”

And the “Kiss Mack Brown’s Ass” crowd often annoys me with their irrational expectations and evaluation of his performance."

I’ll tell you what. You bring in a totally objective observer, and put this in front of him:

Conference Championships since 1998:

Oklahoma—7 (Stoops makes 4 million/yr.)
Texas—2 (Mack makes 5.2 million/yr.)

Those are the numbers in Mack Browns tenure.

Then ask him whether or not those salaries makes sense comparatively.

I don’ t know how to observe any more objectively than that. And we’re extending this ridiculousness until 2020.

OB79: The goal of the UT Athletics department is to make money. It’s a business. Mack has been quite good for that purpose, at least until recently. Bob Stoops is a better football coach, sure. What are we gonna do about it?

Orangeblood79, how about these numbers-

Conference Championships from 1973 - 1987

Switzer - 10
Osborne - 4

Should NU have canned Osborne? I’ll never argue that Mack is a better coach than Stoops, but conference championships is not the sole measure.

Nickel—Obviously, we’re going to sit on our asses and accept mediocrity. It’s what we do best. 5-7. 8-5. Here’s an extension.

Taylor—Go back and check the salaries of those coaches, at that time, and get back to me.

OB79: Nice try with the deflection. Answers are harder than criticism huh?

And in regards to your response to Taylor, How much money does OU generate from their football program? How much does Texas make? We’re just explaining how things work to you.

Conference Champion said:

January 24th, 2012 at 10:07 am

Mack Brown is a good coach. He is not a great coach.

Yes, Mack got us out of the McWilliams/Mackovic mess. And we are extremely thankful. But how many coaches out there do you think could also have done that with our resources and access to high school talent? I can name at least 20.

Go to any team’s message board in the country and you will see posts that say our football program is the most underachieving, and our HC the most overpaid, in the nation. How can every college football fan in the country (except some of ours) be off in their analysis?

Now that Mack has built this empire, those 20 coaches could step in and do well. He rebuilt the pipelines, got “the BB’s back in the box”, and reestablished Texas as a NATIONAL player, not just the state flagship (which at the time of Mack’s arrival A&M was the established state football program of choice) I’d also argue that he has slowly but surely chipping away at OU as the premiere regional choice. Of course Mack isn’t the entire package, he is not perfect, but what in life if? Life is about trade offs. You have to make choices between competing goods and Texas is much better off today than they were 10, 15, 20 and 25 years ago.

@longtex

Your post wasn’t “controversial”. It was poorly written, whiny garbage, an as such, it was deleted.

As for forwarding BC and Cosm anywhere else, I hope you realize these sites are about six orders of magnitude bigger than those. And when we do decide to pull the plug, we won’t need your help.

Be witty and controversial, we’re all for that here. Be a pain in my ass, and we’ll just have to muddle on without you.

This Mack Brown debate is fascinating, and filled with so many fresh arguments that have never been made in an online forum before.

He will continue to make $100,000 a month for as long as he possibly can

It’s not overly surprising that anyone here might be unable to distinguish between “month” and “week” when measuring quantities. It is somewhat surprising that no one caught this (or maybe it’s just that I didn’t notice… always possible…). Mack gets $100,000 a WEEK, not a month. Not moaning or whining, just correcting.

you don’t really know how the recruits were assured of Mack’s tenure so it’s silly to claim that this recruiting class didn’t need something like an extension.

Agreed, but it’s equally silly to claim that they do and/or that it will help persuade.

Has anyone read Mondays In The Humidor With The Big Cigar on IT?

Someone on Shag did, and posted it apparently verbatim.

Mack SUCKS! Mack’s GREAT! Mack SUCKS! Mack’s GREAT! Mack SUCKS! Mack’s GREAT!

Fuck that - it’s all annoying.

Mack does not suck. But Mack is not great, either.

Mack is good, no doubt about it - the question is, is he “Texas good”?

… the buyout …

Is what the extension looks to me to be all about. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen the details on the current contract, but if there isn’t a buyout already based on reduced total amount, that’s what this is really about. What it means is that when it’s signed by all parties (Mike Sherman holla!) the school can turn right around, pull the trigger tomorrow and Mack walks with six mil, no negoti- or litig-ating. Before that, it’s a fight over 4 (or 3?) years at a bit over five mil per. This is cleaner for all concerned and looks to be a better deal for the school than for the coach.

Nickel, you’re looking for an actual answer? I took your question to be rhetorical.

We hire a coach who can bring in the money Mack Brown does, and who can also win ball games. You people act like that coach is impossible to find. He isn’t.

Mack Brown is a great man. He has done great things for this program. But if we want to excel, we need to move on.

I don’t know how many more years of watching Oklahoma kick our ass it’s going to take before some of you realize that.

The good news is, these Mack Brown debate threads always cause me to work on my lawyering skills. They help me to more readily recognize flawed argument tactics, such as the “straw man,” “appealing to coincidence,” and my favorite, “argument by selective observation.”

OB79: Again, nice try. I want to hear the names of 20 coaches that can come in and do as good of a job as Mack.

O79, I ask you again- should NU have fired Osborne after 1981? After all, OU was whipping him far worse than Mack.

When did I ever say there were 20 coaches better? I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. But I’ll tell you what…I’ll start a list, since nobody else will.

Nick Saban
Bob Stoops
Frank Beamer
Steve Spurrier
Urban Meyer
Mark Dantonio
Paul Johnson
Brian Kelly
Chip Kelly
Gary Patterson
Chris Peterson
Bill Snyder

I think it is a little short-sighted to think Mack (or any college coach) is solely judged on how much money he brings into the program. Wins, graduating players (NOTE: not a big deal at many schools, but I presume Texas at least places some value on it), having kids stay out of trouble, etc are all metrics that I’m sure Mack is evaluated by each year.

That is hilarious.

Your list includes a few coaches whose teams consistently spit the bit, and others who have never accomplished anything worth speaking of.

The lunatic fringe of this fanbase never ceases to amaze.

I think that is right, ColoradoAg. Texas also puts a premium on running a clean program and dealing with recruits and players honestly. Something I can’t say for every coach and their respective programs that OB listed.

The good news is, these Mack Brown debate threads always cause me to work on my lawyering skills. They help me to more readily recognize flawed argument tactics, such as the "straw man," "appealing to coincidence," and my favorite, "argument by selective observation."

You should study with echeese.

I’ll give you Saban, Stoops, and…that’s it.
Half of these guys rely on recruits and players that we either can’t take or aren’t interested in. With those players they’ve managed to accomplish less than Mack.

You seem to be one of those types that says, “Imagine Beamer with Mack’s recruits!”. Well, Beamer can’t get Mack’s recruits. And I’m not sure his strategems would work with Mack’s recruits. At Texas we need a guy who can utilize the best recruits in Texas in schemes and programs that will result in conference and national championships. Most of those guys are not accomplishing that goal better than Mack. It so happens that one who is coaches at our rival.

Go and read an OU message board and they have a bunch of OB79 equivalents arguing that Stoops needs to be out soon if he can’t get them back on track!

Taylor…here’s your answer.

24 of the 25 years Osborne was coach, his team finished in the top 15. He won two national championships and shared a third. He also won nine conference championships.

And no, it wasn’t 4 championships for Nebraska. It was 6. You can’t count co-championships for Oklahoma and not for the Huskers. But nice try.

So to answer your question, Osborne’s teams and accomplishments made it obvious that he was one of the best head coaches around. He was an excellent head coach. Only Joe Pa got to 200 wins quicker.

And he coached in fucking Nebraska. Don’t forget we’re talking about Texas. THE state when it comes to high school recruiting.

No, Osborne shouldn’t have been fired. I don’t care what Switzer did. It was obvious that Osborne was great. You might not want to hear it, but Switzer was a hell of a coach.

And Mack isn’t as good as either of them.

BigErn,

You can laugh all you want. None of those coaches have the state of Texas available to them. Coaches like Saban, Stoops, Patterson, Peterson, Spurrier, Meyer, Snyder…those guys would coach circles around Mack Brown.

Name one of those who wouldn’t.

Buyout amounts were never the problem with guys like Bowden and Paterno. The problem was that the schools felt like they’d look like shit for pushing out these revered coaches before they were ready to go. Of course the coaches felt a sense of entitlement based on what they’ve done so that they should be able to stay as long as they want to chase that last big one without accountability. Problem is, does the extension part of this indicate Mack is starting to think in terms of staying with no end in mind.

It really is pretty simple.

Mack Brown did not build Texas into a national power. He helped restore it.

The entire tradition of the program did not start with Mack Brown.

BTW as an aside right now, the Bowden/Paterno messes should again point out just how smart Darrell Royal was. He is a peer but there is a significant difference. Football was his passion — it was never his life.

If there is a sense of entitlement is runs throughout the program it does not begin and end with the head coach. I have little doubt that unlike the situations as Florida State and Penn State, those in charge at the University of Texas would do a much better job of recognizing the Risk/Reward factors and would never let the situation get close to those.

“The lunatic fringe of this fanbase never ceases to amaze”

It’s funny. That’s exactly what I say about sunshine pumpers like yourself.

Look, we can all agree to disagree. That’s fine. I’m not going to spend my day trying to convince those who aren’t going to be convinced. Nor am I going to be persuaded by extensions that now take us eight years into the future.

Mack Brown’s tenure speaks for itself. Two conference championships to Stoops’ seven. And he’s the highest paid coach in college football.

That IS underachieving, when it comes to play on the field. And that can’t be argued.

@ Ripley

Your post wasn’t "controversial". It was poorly written, whiny garbage, an as such, it was deleted.

we’ll just have to muddle on without you

Well said - muddling along looks to be fairly accurate right now. It looks like losing the guts of the ‘Cosm is affecting both BC and the ’Cosm together, and I think that had to have been expected. I’m sorry it’s causing you such angst, but… C’est la vie, cowboy.

That said, there’s no problem on my side - it’s your ball, take it and go home, if that’s what you wanna do. Hell, it’s your sandlot, so you can change the combination on the gate, too.

Taylor T Rooom. I think we can see you are reaching here. Comparing Osborne to Mack? Are you just choosing one example out of literally hundreds of thousands of coaches to prove your point? Lets see, 1981 and there are 100 FBS schools. I bet there have been 1,000 coaches and you can only find one or two to make your hypothetical arguement make sense. He has twice the championships. Saban has won two the past three years and he doesn’t need this type of “security.” Yet he has it and we have the highest paid coach in the land.

Vash, I hope you mean study how he argues, not actually study with him. I’ve read some of that guy’s stuff, and I soon learned to just skip over his posts. That was quite a few years ago, though, even before BC time, and I’ve been around here since at about ‘07/’08. (Or reading since that time. Not sure when I actually started posting.) I don’t even know where he hangs out these days. He certainly has built a name for himself, though.

Nickel if the goal of UT football is to make money and not to winning than we are the only school with such goals and I do not want to be associated with it, nor should you or anyone on here.

Football was his (Saint Darrell’s) passion — it was never his life.

Holy shit! Absolutely, totally beautifully said.

I’m assuming that’s also sorta true of Mack - he can’t possibly need the money, but maybe he needs the surroundings, unlike Darrell.

Why didn’t you include Mark Dantonio, Brian Kelly and/or Paul Johnson in your follow up? I am old enough to remember that prior to Mack, being the state flagship didn’t mean a hill of beans in recruiting. So I appreciate the position we find ourselves in today, and I give Mack the vast majority of the credit for that.

But I always forget that Mack bashers think kids just automatically come to Texas, and that he has no role in recruiting.

I think we need to point out that both sides of this argument have valid points of view. The biggest thing that needs to be recognized, however, is that we don’t get many, if any, idealized choices in our life.

Whoa, Nickle are you suggesting that our main goal is to make profit and not to win?

Tex Long can you expound on where I can find the post verbatim what is Shag?

Big Ern said:

January 24th, 2012 at 11:18 am

Why didn’t you include Mark Dantonio, Brian Kelly and/or Paul Johnson in your follow up? I am old enough to remember that prior to Mack, being the state flagship didn’t mean a hill of beans in recruiting. So I appreciate the position we find ourselves in today, and I give Mack the vast majority of the credit for that.

But I always forget that Mack bashers think kids just automatically come to Texas, and that he has no role in recruiting.

Man that is right, I was a teenager in the mid 80’s. Just pull up the old AAS 50 in those years through the 90’s. Most of the top guys went out of state. I appreciate Mack because he restored Texas to it’s rightful place at the top, sure he could win a couple more championships, but I firmly believe we are trending up long term.

Fire them all… I here Greg Davis is available and we can start over with GDGD… we can make the recruiting base southeast New Mexico and work North from there…

When I played we rarely landed the best players in Texas in fact the recruits we had back then would not even be preferred walk-ons today IMO… aggy got them and Notre Dame and Michigan and Fla State… Mack restored that and had us playing in the MNC game in 2009 and won one in a year I can’t seem to remember since it was so long ago…

Nick Saban - wins MNC games
Bob Stoops - can’t win BCS games unless he plays the Big East runner up
Frank Beamer - MNC game visit came with Vick in the last century
Steve Spurrier - has been
Urban Meyer - emotional head case that has not proven that he can recruit but proven that he can win with other coach’s players
Mark Dantonio - ???
Paul Johnson - Let’s bring the wishbone back to Texas… Oh he’s in the ACC
Brian Kelly - Have you seen the way he goes thru QB’s.. Like shit thru a goose
Chip Kelly - NCAA on its way to Eugene to check on Shiny Helmets and other oddities
Gary Patterson - legit
Chris Peterson - legi
Bill Snyder - sold his soul to the devil and cannot leave Manhattan, Ks or he will turn to dust

Heck, I’ll hafta go back and look - and you know it coulda been deleted by now. I saw it early this AM when I hit the “lad all” button on the Media/Forums/Horns tab… Shag is one of the ones I take a really quick look at, just for the usual laughs it has… I noticed a link in the newest or latest or whatever-adjective-it-is that was labeled something like “Big Cigar Speaks”… I thought about copying it over here, but figgered they’d just delete it… I’ll take a quick look right now while I’m waiting for my lunch date to show…

Big Cigar 1/24 at the top of the football forum…

Well, that wasn’t too tough to find… here’s the link, copied from my address bar:

http://www.shaggybevo.com/board/showthread.php/105091-Big-Cigar-1-24

or maybe we need to obfuscate the URL a bit - can’t seem to keep track of which sites do and do not let straight URL text through cleanly…

hxxp://www.shaggybevo.com/board/showthread.php/105091-Big-Cigar-1-24

Big Ern…

I will include all of those three. Especially Dantonio. Not only those three, but the entire list.

I’m quite sure that’s why I made it.

But if it takes repeating for you, I’ll gladly do it.

I don’t even know where he hangs out these days. He certainly has built a name for himself, though.

On the strength of their brands, echeese and Steven set up an intellectual property shop.

Ah yes. The offseason has officially begun

Thanks TexLong.

Mysterious: Is that sarcasm? The boosters and coaches want to win, the University wants to make money.

OB79: I suppose you are not going to grace us with your presence any further, but you are projecting and assuming a great deal in your list and arguments.

It’s as simple as this: If winning at Texas were so easy than someone would have done it before Mack. If it were as simple as: “This guy has done really well with Juco’s and Kansas kids so imagine what he would do in TEXAS!” Then there wouldn’t have been such a dry period in Texas football.

Brian Kelly is a good example. Notice that he hasn’t turned Notre Dame into a superpower just yet.

We almost took the Big 10 flavor of the month when we hired Mack.

Remember that Gary Barnett guy could really coach circles around people, after all, he took lowly Northwestern to a Rose Bowl.

Nickel…I’m not projecting or assuming any more than you are when you act as if we can’t find a coach who can do what Mack can politically/socially/economically, and win championships at the same time.

You asked for a list, so I provided one. The nature of the game is that it’s going to come with some assumptions, just as your position has its own.

But as I have said again and again, 2 conference championships in…hell, what is it now…14 years?…speaks for itself.

That’s one more than Oklahoma St. One more than Colorado. One more than Kansas St.

For 5.2 million a year, and beyond.

And shit, Mackovic was a coaching legend at Illinois. Give that guy Texas talent, and watch out…

OB79:
You sure do struggle with honesty and assumptions don’t you? I didn’t say we couldn’t find a coach who can do what Mack does. My point is that he doesn’t suck, and his success is far greater than you give him credit for.
I want conference championships as well. Currently I think the best path to doing so is staying the course Mack has set us on.
If you think there’s a better path I’d like to hear it. You got anything better than “Hire Saban away from Bama!”

MOAR MACK BROWNS!

Nickel,

Any course of action aside from yours is going to require hiring someone else. Who ever said it had to be Saban? He was simply a coach on a list of guys who I think could at least do equal the job Mack has.

I’m not sure why you believe I struggle with honesty. I don’t struggle with it at all. I’ve provided you with my honest assessment of our program, and you’ve done the same. We can agree to disagree, but that certainly doesn’t entail “struggling.”

I can appreciate your position. You think the best path to conference championships is staying the course Mack has set us on. I’ll go ahead an overlook the “other” course he set us on that led us to 5-7. Truthfully, or maybe you’d prefer…honestly, I’d love to see the current course change our fortunes. I think Mack is a great guy, a great figurehead. Just not a great coach. And I don’t think that last part is ever going to change, unlike others.

So my question to you is this…in three years, if we haven’t won a conference championship, are you still going to be touting this “course?” Because the only difference in my argument then will be that we have two championships in 17 years, not 14. Is that a great enough disparity for you?

What if we win next year to get to 3 for 15? I assume that’s still too shitty a percentage and thus still grounds for firing.

OB79:
Barring extreme mitigating circumstances, if we don’t win a conference championshp within the next 3 seasons I will have lost faith in our current course. I suspect the board will have as well, if not sooner.

I actually thought Mack should step aside after 5-7, and wrote as much here. I wanted Muschamp to assume head coaching responsibilities. Then Muschamp left, made a terrible OC hire (I suspect he’ll do well there though), and Mack brought aboard a staff that I’m more than willing to give a chance.

Sailor, that “MOAR MACK BROWNS” link is hilarious. Thanks for passing it along.

Well, Nickel…that’s something we certainly agree on. Mack should have been gone after 5-7. And I do appreciate the staff changes he has made. I just don’t think that alone is going to change the issues that need to be addressed the most.

But I’ll gladly relent if I’m wrong. I love the coaches he has brought in.

Interesting debate. I guess I feel strongly both ways.

Nichel Rover:"The goal of the UT Athletics department is to make money. It’s a business. "
While that may be true for employees of The University I don’t think the huge majority of fans gives a damn. I also don’t think you could get anyone at Bellmont to confirm that for the record at gunpoint. If this truly is the purpose of UT Athletics much of the discussions on these blogs are moot. It appears this debate over Mack’s accomplishments is being measured with each side using different units of measurements. Nichel & others are using dollars or letting dollars impact their position. OB79 and others are using only the results on the field & standings.
Mach didn’t invent the Texas brand but he sure increased shareholder value. A good comparison might be what Steven Jobs did when he returned to Apple. Bellmont couldn’t have dreamed of the current riches without Mack & his winning but no one can argue his results vs. Stoops. The 7 conference titles Stoop has won have been in one less year than Mack has been at UT. I’ve always thought Bellmonts’ judgment of Mack factors in his integrity, his commercial value as a face of UT, winning enough & the enormous amout of money he generates the most important or second most important factor. I suspect there is a great deal apprehension about any potential change. Deloss remembers the Dark Days. I’m of the opinion the plan currently being implemented by Mack is an attempt to get where Stoopes already resides.

TaylorTRoom: "Conference Championships from 1973 – 1987

Switzer – 10
Osborne – 4"
Any comparison with Switzer should include an asterik including how many NCAA probations we’re involved to acheive these results.

Taylor disappeared long ago.

Nickel Rover lives in fairy tale land and wears blinders so he cannot truly see things in an objective manner.

Nickle and OB79 must have been on the dabate team while at UT.

Nickel/OB79
Simms/Applewhite
Case/Ash

It’s just part of the balancing act.

We’re all for Texas.

Anyway, it’s the offseason. What else are we gonna do?

NEWS FLASH
Mack Brown has been offered a contract extension to the year 3020. DeLoss Dodds, athletic director at the University of Texas, stated that he had been considering offering an extension to 2020 but after viewing a movie this weekend called “Weekend at Bernie’s” he decided to go ahead and offer an extension for another thousand years. "We have recorded all of his favorite quotes such as “I’m really proud of those kids. They played their heart out.” and “You have to congratulate (fill in the blank) they played a great game.” Plus, we have recordings of all of his Press conferences which can be reused after any future game. We also have recordings of the sound of Mack clapping after U.T turnovers. So we feel that we are set into the next century. Texas A & M has a hundred year plan so we feel it is only right that UT has a thousand year plan." Deloss stated emphatically.

ole thorn: I care about Texas winning, I don’t care about how much money they make except so far as it impacts Texas winning. I’m not trying to evaluate Mack based on the income he provides the University I’m trying to demonstrate that this is true of the people who are in charge of whether he coaches here or not.

Rolandv:
How did you know I live in Dallas?

OB79:
I know you balanced me on the same side as Case on purpose. I demand an apology.

10Horns:
High school, actually. Didn’t do it at UT. I could be prone to sophism if I don’t monitor my joy of argument carefully.

The BC guys are out in force on this one. What a testy group. Threatening long timers like Tex Long with expulsion because you don’t like his opinion on this subject is beyond petty. C’mon. If the loss of a few barkers to IT doesn’t concern you then stop acting like jilted sixth-grade chicks.

“OB79: The goal of the UT Athletics department is to make money. It’s a business. Mack has been quite good for that purpose, at least until recently. Bob Stoops is a better football coach, sure. What are we gonna do about it?”

That you admit this and are seemingly ok with this speaks volumes. No wonder we can’t agree on Mack.

Zzzizzy:
I think you miss my point. Who are we going to hire that will excite you? What course of action should our athletic department take to rectify the fact that there are other coaches out there better than Mack Brown?

Also, do you have any idea what Tex Long had his post removed for? I never read it so I have no idea. If you don’t, perhaps you shouldn’t jump to hasty generalizations.

Anyways, I’m not in kahoots with the other Barkers, we just mostly agree on Mack I guess.

Is this really what it has come to, a white flag?

“The goal of the UT Athletics department is to make money. It’s a business. Mack has been quite good for that purpose, at least until recently. Bob Stoops is a better football coach, sure. What are we gonna do about it?"

I’ve heard of 5 year rebuilding plans when a new coach comes in. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of the 14 year + 3 year “course” to consistently competing for conference championships and not getting blown out by our blood rival. What are the milestones in this 17 year “course”? How do we know we are on track? Is 5 - 7 in year 13 and like 12 benchwarmers on scholarship at TE and a 3 star true freshman at QB in year 14 part of the 17 year plan? That’s just absurd.

“Bob Stoops is a better football coach, sure. What are we gonna do about it?” This should be your sig line, Nickel.

They way I read this extension is basically a way for the University to be rid of Brown should it come to it. Nothing more or less.

But wow this thread really devolved. It must be the offseason.

Both sides make excellent points.

Mack got a significant group of UNC supporters and $$$-alumni to the point that they were convinced he was holding the program back from achieving its ultimate potential. It’s easy to take what he’s accomplished for granted, because he lacks the “look at me, it’s all because of me” gene that makes Saban-Kiffin types tick. He’s good with media, but he doesn’t crave their attention and approval.

He’s the coach until he retires on his own terms (wins enough) or has another losing season. I think it’s as simple as that. A 9-3 netherworld of not-quite-good-enough and not-quite-bad-enough remains a real possibility, but he’s proven he run a program at the top of the heap without Tressel-Kelly-Meyer baggage. That’s a rare commodity, and again, not something to take lightly.

Personally, I think Stoops has lost it. If they can’t overwhelm you with superior athleticism and depth, they’re going to find a way to lose, which is usually a sure sign that the coaching has gone stale. And, I have a hard time seeing Stoops blowing up his staff to turn loose a Diaz-Harsin-Major combination. So perhaps I see more opportunity for Texas over the next 5 years than most.

G.O.F.: you make some solid points. Stoops is at a crossroads. His build from within plan on the coaching staff has served him well up to now. If he can’t replace Venables or Heuple falters then the Land Thieves will call for his head. Because they’ve become used to the standard of excellence that they didn’t enjoy before he came.

Felonious Monk:
Thank you for not saying MBOC.
I’m guessing a bunch of you failed your TAAS/TAKS test because your reading comprehension is piss poor. I’m asking what solution you think will bring Texas to the level you expect.
I’m not hearing a lot of answers because it’s far easier to pick and criticize then it is to present your own solutions.
What is a reasonable course of action Texas can take to start winning conference championships? Starting right now.

Damn! Anyone lose any appendages in this explosion?

@Nickel Rover

I’m guessing that of all the threads this discussion constantly emerges, this seems like the most “okay” place for the Fire Mack Brown Camp to finally vent. Too often people like (no offense) Zzzizzy and others derail game day threads with talking points. But this thread is directly related to Mack’s job.

Oh, and I agree with what you said. Mack is the best option. Period, the talk about Saban is silly and nonsensical and the Big Fact still remains…. Mack Brown is the only coach to win the MNC outside of the SEC in the last half a decade. I wonder what the FMBC will say once he does it again in two years?

bHero…Mack and what quarterback is going to win the MNC in two years?

How about we talk some football. Mack aint going anywhere. I said the same thing back in the summer. Still true. Mack is raising his replacement in house, or it will be Gary Patterson.
Dont count him out if Mack hangs it up in the next 2 years.When he talks about Texas and Mack Brown it sounds like a sweet talking job interview.
That said, Ash is going to be a great QB. Texas will win at least 10 games next year,
 they may just take it to the mnc house. The sun always comes out after the storm.

@OB79
2006 Florida Gators - Chris Leak 23td / 13 int
2007 LSU Tigers - Matt Flynn 23td /11 int
2008 - Florida Gator - Tim Tebow - no stats needed.
2009 - Alabama Crimson Tide - Greg McElroy - 17td / 4 int
2010 - Auburn Tigers - Cam Newton - no stats needed.
2011 - Alabama Crimson Tide - A.J. McCarron - 16td / 5int.

By judging this list. David Ash and Case McCoy could both pull it off.

@OB79

to clarify, it looks like a team with a great defense and competent offense can win the NCG, even with a sophomore QB (A.J. McCarron).

Switzer drunk arrest and firearm record is better than Osborn

MB has the important element of being savy with PR. Which Texas places a value upon along with winning.

Nickel
Throw in some dum ass aggies and you have another great thread. But bidduke and the gang will protect the aggie trolls.

We will have the Defense this year, thats for sure. The offenses will be a little weaker this year in the big 12. Our offense cant help but get better. Plenty of top tailbacks to carry the ball. Texas could win the big 12, thats all it takes to get to the mnc unless your OK St.

Sorry. SEC now has a reserved slot in MNC. In 2012 the other slot will go to PAC, not the weakened Big 12.

VY won the MNC, not Mack. Everyone who was there knows it was VY’s team. He called and led the summer and voluntary workouts and conditioning sessions—-both offense and defense. He forced Mack and GDGD - directly- to change their offensive schemes specifically for him. Half our offense that year was VY improvising on busted plays. And that’s how he put up, personally, 450 yards of offense against USC, which remains a MNC record. Thank you Reggie Bush for trying to lateral inside our five yard line.

Mack was a spectator/fan on the sideline that year, enjoying VY like we were. And Mack LOOKED like a spectator/fan that year every time tv put him on. I bet the headset wasn’t even plugged in.

“Zzzizzy:
I think you miss my point. Who are we going to hire that will excite you? What course of action should our athletic department take to rectify the fact that there are other coaches out there better than Mack Brown?”

Hey Nickel, I appreciate the site and your posts. As you know, I do have one particular hot button — Mack Brown. My own fault I guess; but every season since Earl The Pearl was strapping it on I have pre-season emotionally invested in the fact that “this could be the year.”. Even during the dog days of coaches past, I could still find a way to believe. During the first of the Mack years, I was sold that, with Mack’s solid recruiting, UT would finally “arrive.” Even during the FireMackBrown.com days, I had hope Mack was the guy. But, as the years passed and I realized that my passions for UT football were not shared by the head coach, I have become very jaded on Mack. Mack wants to be the guy in the white hat more than he wants to beat despicable OU, which is a precursor to winning the conference, which is a precursor to winning the NC, which with frequency is a precursor to being considered among the nation’s elite football programs — which, by the way, is the way to attract recruits; not Mack grinning across a coffee table. So, what else do I say? State your opinion here and risk the censorship Gestapo. But, that does not change the fact that Mack is not among the elite coaches when it comes to the one single metric by which all coaches should be gauged — winning championships.

So, to answer your question “What course of action should our athletic department take to rectify the fact that there are other coaches out there better than Mack Brown?”. Easy — hire one. If that doesn’t work out, hire another. I, personally, would rather wander in the desert as we sort through potentials on our way to the Promised Land, than continue to make brick in Egypt just because it is comfortable. I want to grow, to be the best. I know, it sounds like a high goal, but why not strive for what is in our potential. I believe we can have our cake and eat it too; just not under the “good enough” Mack watch.

“Also, do you have any idea what Tex Long had his post removed for? I never read it so I have no idea. If you don’t, perhaps you shouldn’t jump to hasty generalizations.”

Tex Long made two posts back-to-back. I did, in fact, read both. The one that was deleted was a little impassioned; but, didn’t you expect that from some of us with strong opinions about this subject? No one I can recall has ever been deleted for a pro-Mack rant, and there are plenty of them. It was as if y’all were just waiting for the first guy to complain so you could delete him as a warning to the rest of us lowly Mack detractors.

Nickel, you are one of my fav’s so I apologize for replying directly toward you. I would feel a lot better if I could just remove a few of srr’s teeth. :)

bHero -

You might know this, but of the QBs on your list, 2 are starting in the NFL, 2 are on NFL rosters, and one’s a rising junior in college. Only Leak’s done.

I am not trying to speculate on Ash/McCoy post-Texas - there’s enough spittle on this thread already. But while SEC schools don’t ask their QBs to be spectacular, they do recruit and develop top-notch talent.

I mean, who would have picked Matt Flynn to have a more successful NFL career than Matt Leinart?

It was as if y’all were just waiting for the first guy to complain so you could delete him as a warning to the rest of us lowly Mack detractors.

Bullshit.

No one gets deleted for their stance — stuff gets deleted when it is perceived to be too personal, or is just flame throwing aimed at inciting other flame throwers. If you truly believe that this site has a goal of “protecting” Mack Brown your reading comprehension skills might need some sharpening. .

This site and its pro-Frank Solich agenda are B.S. I am sick of the arguments that Solich deserves a shot with Texas talent.

I used to wonder why Texas never seemed to turn the corner and become the powerhouse that it has the potential of becoming
After living in austin for the last 15 years I now understand it. Texas fans simply don’t demand it. They are perfectly happy with a good coach that wins more than he loses, runs a fairly clean program, and has a lot of class and there’s nothing wrong with that. Macks a great guy and spokesman for the university.
You’re just going to have to accept that you will never be on the level of Alabama and a few other schools because your fans don’t demand that from the program. Too many of you are stuck in the past.
The most common phrase I hear is “do you remember what it was like before Mack got here?”. For some reason this gives Mack a pass. I’ve never understood this logic at all. Texas should be at least as successful as Alabama but won’t until the fans believe they deserve better than what they are currently getting.
I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this but some of you know I’m right. The man has only won two conference titles. That’s sad considering your resources and recruiting.

Mack shouldn’t be fired, but he should be on a very tight leash, and this extension may be setting the table for that. If he doesn’t get 10+ wins this season, then we might need to move on.

For now, the best move is to try to remove him from the evaluation process and to reduce his role in deciding who gets offered and who doesn’t. He should stick to doing what he does best - gladhanding high school coaches and the media, and making the big sell on our most coveted recruits.

Boomer sadly is spot on. I wish there was evidence to support his claim. Oh wait:

"The goal of the UT Athletics department is to make money. It’s a business. Mack has been quite good for that purpose, at least until recently. Bob Stoops is a better football coach, sure. What are we gonna do about it?"

Agreed we should be on a level of Alabama. The days of mackovic are no excuse to not demand excellence at Texas. Think about that, we are hoping to be on the level of a lessor school in every aspect. Group think at its finest. If Joe pa coached here and had 2 MNC’s while coaching for 40 years some here would think that is remarkable. Others like myself would have pushed for his removal long before. Taking a back seat to OU is just not acceptable there is. O spin. People here do not like this contract because of 7 to 2 and the woodshed beatings. Those that think that is ok are left justifying and reaching for other stats like non Sec football coach or record against rice or games won after OU, I could go on.

And boomer I don’t think most people are actually afraid to go back to mackovic days. That is never going to bappen. That’s just on here. Most fans demand excellence it’s just the 5 or 6 big donars are pretty much family friends with Mack and serve personal need over the what’s best for Texas.

After living in austin for the last 15 years I now understand it. Texas fans simply don’t demand it.

How do you suggest Texas fans go about doing that? If Alabama fans constantly demanded excellence, how did Mike Dubose and Dennis Franchione and Mike Shula get hired?

MP -

Since you’re so clearly in the know and feel so strongly about this issue, how about you post the names of the “5 or 6 big donors” that are “pretty much family friends with Mack?” Please include the amount given by those 5 or 6 big donors, and where those amounts sit against the backdrop of the overall school/athletic budget. That way, those of us who are persuaded by your cognizant arguments in this thread can reach out directly and effect true change.

Given that the “extension” is really a “buyout option” insertion - which I think is likely the case - then the issue is what are the criteria for deciding to exercise the buyout and make Mack the actual Six Megabux man?

My pre-season prediction was for a record ranging from 7-5 to 9-3, although based on rays of light from Insiders I thought that if we could find a way to top the gooners that we had a legitimate shot at a Big Run… we all know how that turned out… that result and the next few led me back to the original range. I think that was spot on and I think most of us were on that wagon. Absent the injury plague, the higher result likely would have been obtained, so I can’t say I’m totally disappointed in the overall outcome.

I thought then, and I think still, that Mack has not recovered fully from the Death Spiral of 2010 (and he may never do so), when - only my opinion, delete it if you will - he pretty much phased out and lost control of the entire process. Firing Greg and the others was a start, and one that he was almost certainly forced into (unlike 2003), but in the end, it was the Big Dogs and not Mack who blinked. Muschamp, in his HCIW suit, got rid of Greg, but was unable to get his own OC choice, and decided that the better part of valor was a return ticket home.

So, here we are. From a serious shot at the MNC to F.A.I.L. in one year, a low rebound the next with a partly new cast, and… now what?

On the heels of having a couple of 18-year-old kids piss on us, we get the ballyhooed Extension 2020. PR-wise, not really the best thing, you think?

So, now DeLoss and the ‘Dogs have the Extended Exploding CollarTM around Mack’s neck, and a Big Red ButtonTM on the desktop.

What makes them push the putton? Another 7-5? Worse? A little better, but not enough? Overriding Harsin’s calls while losing a game or two that should be winnable? Getting the BlowU Blowout Blooze again?

Me, I don’t see this as anything more than the EEC, but… what does Mack have to do to avoid the button push?

Obviously we could never go back to the Mackovic days. Once a program is well established, there is absolutely no turning back. It’s not as if one bad hire can lead the program back to the depths of irrelevancy.

Just ask Florida and Ron Zook, Alabama and Don Shula, Notre Dame and Bob Davies, Michigan and Rich Rod, USC and Paul Hackett.

Whomever we hire, we are guaranteed to do better than we have done under Mack. Because after all, We’re Texas. Right?

Mike Shula. Don would have been a bad hire as well.

Bama struck out a few times but they eventually hit the jackpot, and now have had more success since 98 than we’ve had under Brown. The trick is not letting guys like Shula stick around and destroy your program, like we let McWilliams and Mackovic do to ours.

Fear is the mindkiller.

I will let it pass through me

Wow… such dramatic straw-men arguments around here…..

This is shaping up like a religious debate. Either your for Firing Mack Brown or against GOD!!! Where’s Jonathan Edwards when you need him?

Zzzizzzy is right on. The emperor is buck naked.

My response to the solution of just hiring more coaches until we get it right is the same as Big Ern’s response. But I will add one more example:

A&M is currently pursuing the strategy of trying to find a coach to rebuild the program, and then firing him if he can’t do it in 3 years. Look how well it’s going for them…Being “Aggy” is not finding good things in a 7-5 season. Being Aggy is making hasty hires and hastier replacements, series of knee-jerk reactions that destroy the stability of a program.

We need patience. Mack has a course to rebuild us. If people have arguments and reasons to believe it’s not going to work I would love to discuss it. However, I don’t find it productive to whine about how Stoops has had Mack’s number in the past. We all realize that Mack steered the ship into the iceberg. What use will complaining about it do?

Dodds already made the choice about whether Mack was going to stay or go after 5-7. That debate is over. So let’s discuss whether the new course is steering us towards any icebergs.

to add on to NR’s points…. Notre Dame is still doing exactly what people are calling for. Give a guy 2 to 3 years after you declare him the Messiah, then fire him and go out and moneywhip the next flavor of the month messiah. That has been going on since 1996. Unless Brian Kelly turns out to be that guy, they will rinse and repeat again.

unless you are firing Mack to get Saban or Urban, everyone else is a risk. some of you are willing to take that - and I get it. but i don’t think you adequately factor in the downside which is blowing up a good thing and beginning a multi-decade cycle of filtering through crap. what exactly makes people think that Chris Petersen, Gary Patterson, Mark Dantonio, Paul Johnson, Brian Kelly, Chip Kelly, etc. - all of which have a collective 0 national championships between them - would be an improvement over Mack Brown?

Aggy’s pool of applicants is also a lot more shallow than what would be available to us. Schools like Bama, Texas, and Florida don’t need to be as patient as someone like A&M because they will usually have the pick of the litter. If you’re too passive you miss out on prizes like Saban or Meyer. There will always be risk, but there’s also risk in staying the course.

We’ve hitched our wagon to Mack for at least one more season, let’s just hope that if things don’t go as planned the AD will show some teeth and not bow to the man like FSU and PSU bowed to their respective coaches.

Seems like the whole “stay the course” argument predicates on the postulate that keeping Mack around is the least risky move. I beg to differ. We don’t have to make a bad hire to sink the whole enterprise. That has happened already under the Avuncular Nincompoop in 2010. I would argue that hitching our wagon to Mack is risking squandering the residual positive momentum that still exists in the program after the debacle that played out on his watch the last two years.

@Nickel Rover

You are a hell of a lot more confident than me that Mack is pursuing some type of “course” to rebuilding. First, why the hell are we rebuilding going into Year 15? Second, I have seen absolutely nothing to indicate that the Avuncular Nincompoop wields the type of control over the program and it’s processes that would be a primary prerequisite for being able to execute against any type of multi-year plan on his part. The Horns may or may not be on a succesful rebuilding course under the new coaching staff, but Mack’s best move is to stay the hell out of the way and not fuck things up any more than he already has. That being the reality, why the hell are we still keeping this effete “nice guy” around at $5 mil plus per annum?

Felonious Monk:

You are on pace to win a reward for most incompetent poster of the year.

He’s not on a course to rebuilding? What do you call replacing almost the entire coaching staff? What do you call purging the roster of dead weight and starting underclassmen all over the offense?

Mack Brown doesn’t have any control over the program? He just needs to “Stay out of the way”? Who picked out this new staff that most Texas fans are falling in love with? Who built the recruiting program that brings in kids that get everyone excited?
If Mack Brown has no control over the program than why are you arguing that he needs to stay out of the way? You seem incapable of even holding a though together for more than a paragraph before pooping yourself.

NY Horn:
Saban isn’t coming here. There is no opportunity to bring Saban here that Texas missed on after 5-7, or is missing out on now. Urban Meyer flamed out spectacularly at Florida and his health failed. You think that’s a sure thing?

Often when you take a successful, established coach he’s already peaked and is on his way down in his career. You need to bring in a guy when he’s on his way to the peak of his powers. Coaching is really a young man’s game, doing it as an older man requires a level of energy, drive, and wisdom that not everyone possesses.

Mack doesn’t get nearly enough credit from nincompoops like Felonious monk for his ability to identify coaching talent and successfully delegate responsibility to them while still steering the general strategy and course of the program. It’s very hard to for a guy confident enough to be a head coach at a school like Texas to not micro-manage and overextend himself in hubris.

The football program may be on a course to rebuilding going into Year 15, but Mack the individual has very little to do with it. The question as to why we are even on a rebuilding course in Year 15 remains unanswered. That’s a pickle as it requires a great deal of cognitive dissonance to reconcile the fact that we are trusting this rebuilding to the same head coach who ran the program into the ditch in first place. Meanwhile, the argument is profferred that the reason we don’t venture out and try and get a great head coach as opposed to the “good” one we currently have is that to do so would risk running the program into a ditch. This challenging conundrum has apparently prompted you to initiate ad hominem attacks.

Reading the tea leaves, I am convinced the major decisions at this point are vetted through an approval process that marginalizes Mack’s individual impact.

At the end of the day, you don’t have to be a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing. The numbers say what the numbers say and 5 - 7, 63-14, 65-13, 55-17 and 2 versus 7 are pretty compelling data points. The ratio of OU blowouts (3 of 14 or 21.4%) significantly exceeds the ratio of conference championships (2 of 14 or 14.29%) BTW.

What is the reason we are rebuilding in year 15 of old Mack or year 3 of new Mack?

Tex2Step, there was an article in the WSJ and espn a while back that mentions our program and who supports it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704541004574600051780005902.html
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=texasfootball&num=2

@Nickel Rover

I’m sure this will invoke another ad-hominem reference from felonious monk… but do you feel like you are talking to chicken little reading the discussion? One little apple falls and everyone starts running around saying the sky is falling.

They continue to misrepresent your position and skew it into a non sequitor circular reference and then attack the misrepresentation (strawman). All the while picking up a sense of victory as they build their “argument” with such key telling statistics as the ratio of UT Big losses to OU vs UT Conference Championships.

This has honestly degraded into “verbose” troll speak from the FMBC. It really seems like there is some mythical standard in people’s head and our fans are becoming more a victim of penis envy (in the most psychological sense) with regards to Saban and the perceived (incorrectly) impotence of Mack Brown.

This isn’t about Mack Brown moving on, or saying he ran to program into a ditch or some obscure, completely weightless statistic regarding UT’s cherry-picked record. This is about people having unrealistic expectations. That somehow we can be a terrible team and still win the National Championship (allegedly we won in spite of our coach?, guess we should have kept Makovic) , go to another NCG game, have a crapton of 10 win seasons, win 3 BCS games, and then falter one time…. one time in 15 years… and that it is somehow TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. You can never rebuild. Ever. Really? How does this even begin to become defensible? I’m trying really hard to be patient with these poorly constructed smokescreens posing as actual complaints, but it becomes more and more difficult as the conversation regresses into someone saying (paraphrase), “Yeah but UT only won 1/6 of the time when the wind speed was increasing faster that the barometric pressure… Fire Mack Brown. The numbers don’t lie. He he.”

Ridiculous. There is not one legitimate reason to say that firing Mack Brown is the right thing to do. Not today, not last year.

bHero: thanks for the support, I guess I’m arguing more for the people reading than I am to convince Felonious Monk or some of the other grumblers.

As for Felonious Monk:
You haven’t offered a working solution for Mack Brown’s replacement.
I challenged your argument that Mack Brown has zero control. Your answer basically amounted to “he must not be controlling the things he seems to be controlling.”
That would be convenient. It would allow you to support obviously good moves such as the Diaz hire without giving any credit to Mack. Unfortunately, it’s as unlikely as it is unsubstantiated.
I understand that you think your vocabulary, OU stats, and appeals to economic concepts you obviously don’t comprehend have conspired to convince you that you’re a clever commentor. Don’t be deceived. All you’ve said can be easily be stripped down and summed up in the following arguments,

1). Mack hasn’t done well enough against OU and Stoops
2). Mack Brown is responsible for 5-7 and therefore sucks.
3). Mack must not be responsible for any of the good things happening in the program right now because he sucks. (See points 1 and 2!!!!)

Your answer for all of these problems is….nothing. You’ve presented nothing.

And for the record: an ad hominem attack attempts to refute an argument through insult or attack on character.
I attacked your argument with real arguments. My labeling of you as incompetent was an observation, not a rebuttal.

Why are we rebuilding in year 15?

When your roster turns over every 3 to 4 years, and you are reliant on projecting the abilities of 17 to 18 year old kids who you get a limited amount of time to watch, I would say having to spend 1 to 2 years rebuilding every 15 to 20 years is not a bad track record.

Felonious - what programs have not had to rebuild over 15 to 20 year stretches? I am hard pressed to think of any.

Interesting Stat from ESPN:

11 of the 24 recruits from UT 2007 never played out their eligibility (ignoring Earl Thomas). They left the school for academic, criminal or personal reasons. That left us with a class of 13 in 2007.

Also quoted was that of the last 136 o-linemen taken in the NFL draft, not one was from UT. Baylor has had 3 in the last the year, all taken before round 3. TCU has had 2. A similar story on the D-Line…. with only Okam, Miller and Wright going into the draft in the last 6 years.

Davis and Sereals have both recently (in that same time-frame) recruited for 3 different NCG winning lines. Interesting little story. Gives a homer a little more hope.

*Correction

Baylor has had 3 in the last 3 years

@ Nickel Rover

You have no idea what I understand and don’t understand. I do comprehend that you are an asshole and I’ve been patient with your assholery as this is obviously your sandbox. Whatever.

Why are we rebuilding in year 15? When your roster turns over every 3 to 4 years…

It turns over every year, not every 3 to 4 (or 5) years. You have 85 schollies to cover five years’ worth of players - that’s 17 per year, or 21 if you want to call it a 4-year deal. I’m not a stats fiend, so I don’t know what the averages are, not for us or anyone else. What I do know, though, is that you need to plan to be ready to replace at least a few really good players every year, and you need to put your team together in such a way that it is not completely (or nearly so) dependent on a single transcendent player.

We’re still looking back at what we were, and what we were was because of two consecutive truly all-time great quarterbacks (although Colt took a couple of years to get really rolling, since he had to have OJT with minimal preparation and even that was more than Ash got), and because of a run over the same period of very, very good defenses.

2010? GG just flat wasn’t the transcendent QB that Mack (or GD or whomever) thought he was, and he was the only plan we had, post-Colt. I don’t know if Harris would have worked out, and neither do you, because he never got much of a shot at it. McCoy Minor wasn’t it, as he showed us this past season. Mack keeping Gilbert on the field looked like the guy pushing the elevator button over and over, after everyone else has realized the elevator ain’t coming and starting down the stairs. Without a still pretty good defense, we might have lost nine games instead of just seven, particularly if the Flying Penile Bros. didn’t wear their jockey shorts so tight that their brains were squeezed even smaller.

2011? New staff, new schemes = learning process. Either Mack convinced Harsin, or Harsin convinced himself, that Gilbert could be The Man and that McCoy Minor could become Coltish. That turned out wrong, and as a result we wound up with a true freshman at QB - and moreover, one who was not seen and recruited as the Next Vince McColt by us or anyone else - and even at that, we were within injury distance of a respectable 9-3 turnaround, thanks mostly to a very good defense (yet again). The injuries also demonstrated part of the problem: three freshman and one senior got hurt, and there was no replacement to be found among the soph, junior and senior classes - whose doorstep does that get laid on?

So… two fuckup seasons in a row, and now we see Mack with the Killer Buyout ClauseTM.

There are three possibilities for the 2012 Season: we get better, we get worse, we stay the same. I think we’re going to get better, but…

If we stay the same, does the KBC get invoked? Probably not, but how long do the Big Dogs let it go on?

If we get worse, does the KBC get invoked? Probably so, but then what? HarsinWhite go up? Diaz? Do we give Petersen a shot? Anyone else on the horizon?

If we get better, congratulations to Mack 2.0 - and… another extension? Raise the buyout to $5M? Or…?

Felonious Monk demonstrates the intelligence and willingness to actually debate the reality of our current situation that you see from much of the FMBC. Press them to produce solutions and they take their toys and go home.

@Tex Long

Definitely agree that the contract “extension” was more about making both sides happy - recruiting (minor), donors/BOD and the buy out (real point).

I wouldn’t really call 2011 a big miss though, would you? The staff appears much more flexible and responsive to the teams performance than 2010 (Gilbert/Fozzy/Cody/Davis/White/Allan all fired). They made roster/depth chart changes every week, and not just because of injuries. They seemed to be making points with the depth chart decisions and PT, to both the players and the fans, while illustrating the winning is what is most important to the program. I know I am a homer, but I wouldn’t write off 2011.

It’s hard to think this team wouldn’t have a better season next year. Cupcake OOC schedule, TAMU gone, RGIII - Weeden - Blackmon - Wright gone. With that in mind, I do think you are right that if we have a 8 or worse win season, Mack will retire or be removed.

Seriously?? Horns make a lot, a lot, and even more money compared to most. Mack Brown is the face for much of that stake. Considering we have had a couple sub par years, (a lot to do with an impressive line of quarterbacks running out), and the Horns found a way to make MORE money… well I think we can just agree this a contract that the school knows will pay for itself, win or lose.