Ric Bucher: Kevin Durant Not on My Top 7 NBA Players List

What’s the top 7 then? I feel like I could name 5 guys I would take over Durant but none of them are named Westbrook.

Couldn’t follow the link, site banned here at work.

What an absolute joke. Russel Westbrook is a big reason as to WHY the Thunder couldn’t get past the Mavs last year.

I’ll never understand the Dwayne Wade love either. He’s riding his b.s. championship from years ago when the refs screwed the Mavs.

James is a choker.

That Ty post went downhill fast.

Couldn’t follow the link, site banned here at work.

ESPN banned at work?

Man that’s a tough crowd.

His Top 7
Kobe
Derrick Rose
Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitski
Russell Westbrook

I think we’re at an interesting time in the NBA when the difference between the 3rd best player and 12th best isn’t all that wide.
 
I’m fine with Wade, James, and even Howard over Durant.
 
I’m not sure about Rose. I’m not as blown away by his game as the rest of the media. If PG statistics blow you away, why not Chris Paul?
 
Not sure how to assess Nowitski’s bad start against last year’s playoff ultra dominance.
 
Kobe at #1is a body of work selection who has been carrying the Lakers on his back early on - he has been a monster - but let’s check back in on him around Game #60.
 
Westbrook is pure silliness. He’s a shoot-first point guard who thrives in the open court and can’t really shoot all that well.

I would rather have Durant than Kobe, Nowitzki, Westbrook, and maybe Rose.

No mention of Paul, Rondo, or Love. Pretty typical.

ESPN is okay but for whatever reason that link is blocked.

Who would trade Chris Paul straight up for Russel Westbrook? I mean besides Bucher.

Somewhere Mark Shapiro - the ESPN exec who greenlit “Quite Frankly” with Stephen A. Smith - is giving that piece a slow clap. If anyone understood the value of totally subverting your and your network’s credibility in exchange for manufactured controversy an cheap heat, it was Mark.

Ditto on Rose. I’d also add Wade to the “body of work” group. Second biggest mistake on the list behind Westbrook is Howard. He’s a great rebounder and shot blocker but with way too limited an offensive arsenal to be on the list. I wonder if both KD and Westbrook were noth available to Bucher as a team owner at the same cost who he’d take. Seriously!

If every NBA team had to start over and redraft, I guarantee you the only guy who might go ahead of KD would be LeBron.

Jake,

NBA GM’s have proven they would probably take Howard over Lebron or KD.

Sam Bowie and Greg Oden Regards,

TG

Wade, Paul, and Howard are all easily better than Durant.

Durant is a scorer who was built in a lab, but he doesn’t possess amazing passing ability or vision, he doesn’t rebound like an elite player (although he isn’t bad), and he isn’t as good a defender as you might hope from someone that athletic and long.

Wade is an elite defender, creator, scorer, and he rebounds a lot for his size.

Howard makes Magic teams that are loaded with poor defenders into solid defensive teams. He also shoots nearly 60% without playing with premier lead guards. The bashing of those guys doesn’t make any sense to me. They offer a lot to their teams.

The most interesting part of Durant’s development is that his assists numbers are starting to trend way up. He’s also one of the most effective finishers in the league in transition. I think he actually rebounds very well for a 3 who spends a lot of time camped out on the 3 point line for offensive spacing in Scotty Brooks’ primitive cluster fuck of a half court offense.
 
I’ve also seen a number of games this season where Durant could clearly have gotten to 40 to pad his stats, but he’s deferred to guys like Harden and Cook so they can get theirs.

What a joke. I’ve considered Bucher a nincompoop since last year when he remained steadfast in his Rose MVP pick after he was demolished in the playoffs. I like Rose a lot, but it’s tough for me to enjoy his game when blowhards like Bucher are yelling loudly about him every second. It clouds my enjoyment, or at least it did last season.

Right now I’d say James, Wade, Howard, Paul and Durant are all more valuable to their team’s success then Rose, but I guess that isn’t the question here. Regardless of the criteria (a “top 7 list” vs mvp defined list) I still think Rose falls behind those five. What’s really telling about Bucher’s inclusion of Westbrook is I had totally forgot that was what sparked this because it’s not even a thought in my mind that RW should be discussed here.

Durant’s leadership value is the reason you would take him over some of those other guys.

Rose is in the bottom quartile of NBA defenders. That alone discounts him from serious MVP mention. Guys like Bucher also try to cast the Bulls as a bad team elevated by his play when his supporting cast is actually really, really good.

Jake,

“NBA GM’s have proven they would probably take Howard over Lebron or KD.

Sam Bowie and Greg Oden Regards,

TG"

Good point well taken. Both those picks made by Portland, but I’m sure there are other examples - like anybody the Clippers ever took before Griffin

Scipio, nail on the head. Now I know it was against the Wizards, but last night the Rose-less bulls thrashed the Wiz exactly like they would have done with Rose. That machine can keep chugging against most of the league with little drop off minus Rose. He’s great and extremely fun to watch, but the Thibodeau defense and frontcourt depth is as much the MVP of that team as Rose. You take Lebron from Cleveland and they get a number one draft pick.

Rose sure has been playing better and better, but he doesn’t rebound or get to the free throw line very well for a superstar. In the more physical elements of the game he doesn’t really produce, which is curious since he’s such a big, athletic guy. Suggests a soft mindset.

It’s a mystery to me how Paul is routinely left out of these discussions. He’s the best PG in the league and it’s not close.

Jake,

Excellent point. That must be quite disheartening for Portlandiers.

While I agree on Wade and Lebron, and even Howard from a right now standpoint, if you factor in upside, and age, I might take Durrant over both Howard and Lebron. Admittedly, I would suck as an NBA GM because there’s not much I hate more than NBA attitude. So I bump Durrant just because he’s not a douche bag.

Cp3 !

— Howard has to be in the top 5 because he and LeBron are the only two guys who by themselves make a bad defense average or a decent one good. Plus he can score 15+ a game just off dunks and rebounds.

— Wade may rub people the wrong way but he’s one of the two best pure scorers in the NBA and a great leader. This wouldn’t be in doubt if LBJ hadn’t completely fallen apart again.

If the list is best players in the league right now as Bucher suggests, it should be as follows:

1. James (most irreplaceable talent in the NBA and he produces…in the reg season)
2. Bryant (its early but black mamba is producing like a 26 yr old Kobe and is still clutch)
3. Wade (scores, dishes, rebounds, steals, leads, clutch)
4. Paul (best floor general playing)
5. Howard (he is a team defense and is productive on offense even if not fluid)
6. Durant (scoring machine)
7. Love/Rondo (pick’em: two most underrated players in the game)

Galt, glad to see someone showing Kevin Love some, er, love. He’s criminally underrated. Just has had a terrible team around him. With Rubio and Derrick Williams that may be changing soon.

Kobe Bryant is on pace for one of the most overrated seasons in history. He’s averaging 4 TO per game and shooting 46% from the field and 18% behind the arc.

He’s slipping away from even being an All-Star. The sheer mediocrity of Western conference SG play is his only hope.

I think I made it fairly clear why Durant trumps Westbrook previously:
http://barkingcarnival.fantake.com/2011/08/02/kevin-durant-was-in-harlem-last-night/

As for the list in general, I think the current crop of elite NBA talent lacks a bit in terms of depth at SG & C, so I would probably give some guys at those positions the nod if it’s a close call between someone who plays one of the other spots.

Rose is more like a grown version of Allen Iverson than the blueprint of a championship point guard. Might be good for ticket sales, but I’d put his services up for auction. I guess Bucher is the opposing G.M. in this hypothetical, so I’m getting a lot in return. Thanks, Ric!

Westbrook? Admittedly I only really saw him play during the Mavs series but that guy is fucking terrible.

This sounds like a slap at Durant by Bucher rather than a real plug for Westbrook. Westbrook can be dynamic, but he obviously has been a detriment to his team on different occasions. Durant’s still really young and he is coming into his own. I think he would be better served with a better coach. This year will determine how long brooks lasts and if they don’t shop westbrook. I mean, look, if the thunder are left making a decision between Westbrook and Durant, who do you think they are going to take?

It really isn’t that outrageous a statement. There are three guys who dominate on both sides of the ball in the NBA — LeBron, Howard and Wade.

KD’s solidly in the second-tier of NBA stars, and where he places within that group depends in large part on the players around him and how they complement his game. However, he can still significantly improve as a passer, post player and a defender, which is a pretty crazy thing to say about an All-NBA player.

I’d put LaMarcus Aldridge in that group too; he’s making the leap to stardom this year in Portland now that the shadows of Roy and Oden are beginning to recede. I grabbed Portland at 35:1 to win the championship before the season started; that’s already fallen to 25:1. I don’t think they should be the favorite to win the title, but I didn’t think the Mavericks were last year and I still grabbed them at 16:1.

When people try to make points like this, I question if they ever watch games or if they are just trying to be controversial.

Tjarks, I’d go ahead and put Paul in the same company as Wade, James, and Howard. His defensive impact is perhaps less (though he gets a ton of steals) but he absolutely controls the ball and makes his team’s offense far more efficient. What do you think?

I definitely agree that there is another tier after that group into which Durant fits. Perhaps someday he can make that leap if he becomes an impact defender, passer, or post-up player.

still think Durant is coming into his own. But it’s also a position evaluation. Chris Paul runs the offense whereas Durant should not—see Steve Nash in his prime except CP has more defense. You’ve seen the best from Wade and Kobe is like the energizer bunny but has to be on the slow backside of his career. Westbrook is the spaghetti adherence test just to create controversy. No way do you build a team around Westbrook. That’s just stupid. Lebron is still coming into his own but lacks leadership and he settles at times for the outside shot which is what opponents would prefer. If Durant’s knock is his defense then why is Dirk ahead when they’re both really similar.

Nickel, another telling thing about Kobe is that he’s very unlikely to keep up his scoring pace once his legs become weary.

He averages 9 shots a game from “long” 2-pt range, and he’s hitting 55% of those. That’s abnormal, not just for an NBA player, but for Kobe as well. When that percentage drops back to around 40% he’s going to look absolutely pedestrian.

How do you value consistency in scoring? I agree with most of you that are saying that Durant lacks a lot of the ancillary skills requisite in the upper echelons of NBA talent, but there was a Hollinger piece a couple seasons ago demonstrating that Durant had the lowest coefficient of variation among volume scorers. And it wasn’t close. This was the same year he won the scoring title. This is not easy to do; dude just does not take a night off.

Not a Hollinger piece, my bad:

http://nba-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/27030243

Some observations from an applied math major:

1. General trend in the first graph is downward; implies that as PPG increases, consistency increases. Don’t read too much into this as consistency measured here is normalized by PPG.

2. Durant’s standard deviation from his mean is a paltry 3.8 ppg, less than two buckets. This puts him in the lead for lowest standard deviation as well. This is the most impressive because…

3. … he scores fucking 28 ppg. Maintaining a standard deviation of 4 points while scoring 28 every night is ridiculous. Amare Stoudamire comes close, with a std. dev. of 5.7, while averaging slightly fewer points and playing at a position in which consistency is easier to come by.

Sorry to get all math-y, but this article impressed me a lot about Durant when I read it a few years ago. Being a consistent volume scorer, is, historically, very difficult to do.

Durant isn’t that great a foundation for a team though. He’s a great scorer but he’s more of a finisher than anything. It’s hard to build your team around a scorer who isn’t a facilitator. The Mavs had to add Kidd and Chandler to make it work with Dirk. The plus is that Dirk allowed them to have pieces like Kidd and Chandler who don’t excel at scoring themselves.

The Thunder need to build like that.

The consistency is awesome, it would just be nice if what Durant offered more on a consistent basis besides 28 points. Really just one more elite trait and he would be in the top echelon.

Westbrook does not belong but I honestly I cant argue with the other names being ahead of Durant. He would make my top three but that list is stacked and I think over time there will be no arguement. But he is better than Westbrook and everybody knows this but Bucher.

Dirk should absolutly be on that list though. Man is clutch time and time again.

This conversation has been enjoyable to read. Thanks guys.

HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!!??!!?!?!?!? KD is AT WORST the 3rd best player in the league. AT WORST!

FURTHERMORE!!!! WESTBROOK SUCKS OUT LOUD!!! Quickness, speed, and jumping ability will only get you so far in basketball. In the NBA you’ve actually got to be able to play to be a super-star. He makes horrible decisions with the ball and his jumper is non-existant. He’s gonna get hurt and then won’t ever be the ‘same’ because he has no real game to fall back on. Only athetic ability. Only reason people even know he’s alive is because he plays with KD.

Top players are as follows:
1. LeBron
1a. KD
3. Wade
4. Kobe
5. Rose
Everyone else…

Dwight Howard cannot make this list. He’s way to limited offensively (as others have stated) and his free-throw shooting is a joke. He is a force, but not one that can lead a team to the promised land. In a similar vien to Carmello.

Bucher is a joke!

I just thought of something really cute. You know how a dog looks when it hears a strange noise? It tilts its head a little to the side, and has a sort of confused look on its little face? And then it bites Ric Bucher in the nutz? Awwww…..

3 from the corner, you should read the other comments on this thread.

to build a team around, the guy has to have versatility and play a variety of roles or positions. Howard can control the middle of the floor without having to be fed the ball for shots—which frees up other players to shoot while still getting his. Blake Griffen/CP3 are a great template for building a team same as Kobe/Shaq—but that’s your inside out game. Cornerstone guys—definitely Howard as much as Shaq.

This discussion is pretty much dead, but I’d like to point out that Durant and Rose are a few years younger than the other players on the list. If the question is: which player would I build a team around today, I think Durant wins hands down.

The extra 3-5 years of career left on these guys puts me over the edge with respect to this question.

Nickel —

Paul, Deron Williams and Derrick Rose are fairly complete players, but it’s pretty much impossible to dominate the interior of the lane defensively at 6’3 and under. There’s a reason non Magic Johnson PG’s didn’t win MVP’s until the last few years; personally, I thought Shaq (‘04) and Dirk (’05) should have Nash’s MVP’s and Howard should have Rose’s from last year.

Wade has a 6’11 wingspan so he plays a lot bigger than 6’4.

Great point about how Dirk needed a lot of pieces around him to finally get that title. I think that’s the natural end point of Durant’s game offensively, but he’s not there yet. Let’s see if he can keep that 49% field goal percentage all season. That’s a much more important number to track than his raw point totals.

Tjarks: I agree about the supremacy of the big man but disagree about Paul and placing him with Deron Williams, and definitely Rose.

Paul’s net impact on his team’s number of posessions and their efficiency with those possessions is comparable to that of a dominant center. He’s amazing. Efficient scorer, gets teammates high-percentage looks, steals the ball, and limits turnovers. Not even MVP Nash seasons approach what Paul does when he’s healthy.

One can easily deduce that Ric Bucher is such a lowly regarded “writer” that he can only get an article published that supposes folly. Only by being outrageous can he get past his editor who must dearly wish they they did not have to deal with him. Good is good, and Kevin is; Ric ain’t

Just hear Bucher on a podcast say he thinks Kevin Love is a great third player. This guy just parodies himself now.

Bucher runs a lot of bits, but that’s too be expected for an ESPN “analyst”. They need to have “controversial takes” that “generate buzz” and get them a greater social media “profile”.

His point about Love is that he’s not a primary shot-creator; he’s a great rebounder/hustle player who can run the pick-and-pop, but he can’t dominate out of the low post and he can’t beat guys off the bounce consistently either. He’s also not an elite interior defender and he’s barely even passable on that side of the floor.

So when Bucher says he would be a great third player he means that Love needs to play with an All-Defensive type center like Tyson Chandler and a perimeter player who can get his own shot at will and create open looks for Love on the 3-point like Rajon Rondo.

Or to put it another way: Love would be an amazing fit with Wade and Bron in Miami, but Minnesota would be a better team if Bosh was their primary offensive option, creating efficient shots out of the high post and generating open looks for guys like Derrick Williams, Mike Beasley and Anthony Randolph.

Just feels like the importance of the extra possessions his rebounding affords is being undervalued because his 25 points (average) isn’t coming as a result of being the guy the offense runs through. I get the “third player” quote a bit better now, and appreciate you explaining it. I think it’s selling short what Love gives a team every night still…and it’s just hard for me to listen to Bucher. His philosophy on what matters seems to change with player eval’s based on who he likes the most right now.