Kansas 69, Texas 66: Good, Bad & Ugly

Thanks for the review.
 
Would 9-9 and a 1st round Big 12 tourney win get us into the Dance?
 
Sheldon M is a future star.

I can see myself in that photo.

Scip: I think quality of wins/SoS would be a determining factor.

Mich. St. got in last year at 9-9 conference wise. They had one quality win of note (home for Wiscy), but didn’t have any bad non-con losses and then knocked off Purdue in the Big 10 tourney. Texas’ best win is against a perfectly average Temple team, and their non-con losses to Oregon St. and NCST are painful.

I think brand name helped Mich St. and would help Texas as well, but the Longhorns have to do their part. The five remaining games against Baylor, Mizzou, K-State and KU loom huge. Ultimately, if Texas just limps into 9 conf wins against A&M, OU and the chaff, the committee could see a landmark win (like ND over Cuse, FSU over Duke) as a differentiator over the Horns.

Defensive consistency killed them in the home stretch. Bad offense with no movement also. At the very least, there is a much better chance of winning if they don’t foul to give Kansas two 3 point plays at the end. Then the J’Covan’s last shot comes down only 1.

Chapman has been a warrior though. Good to see him contributing.

Can’t say I’m too optimistic for 2012. I thought this team would be on the NCAA bubble before I saw that Kabongo isn’t ready for the NBA and Lewis isn’t ready to start in college. Too much youth, plain and simple.

I think these guys will pay a lot of dividends down the line - as of now, I’d expect all of our 2011 recruits to be here three or four years and become the core of a dangerous team, and we haven’t had that luxury since the days of Ivey, Mouton and Boddicker. But they’re not ready for sustained excellence yet. And while I enjoy seeing J’Covan and Chappy improve they’re not the kind of stars we need to complement our new set of role-players. Gimme two of Pollard, Randle and Ridley and I think we’re pretty golden over the next couple of years. Just one should get us back to competitive in the conference.

at what point does the disappointments in high-profile recruits’ play with Rick Barnes start showing itself in poor recruiting with future enrollees?
I mean it looks like Kabongo is the latest in the line of underperforming big time recruits to join Bradley and others that seem to flame out at UT.

All of Rick Barnes high ranked recruits got guaranteed, first round NBA money, and most of them sooner rather than later. That’s the goal for most of these guys.

The official wrecking of Kabongo’s head has commenced.

Seems the recruiting line at Texas is something like this: “Hey _______, Austin is a great place, great weather, Barton Springs, East 6th Street, 25,000 pretty Texas coeds. Girls at Syracuse and Storrs look like Chewbacca. You gotta put up with Barnes, but it’s only for a year. Durant did it and look what happened to him.”

Freshman point guards wrecking shop is the exception rather than the rule. Barnes defying that trend with Augustin and Ford was a nice thing, but not to be expected.
 
The problem with most Texas basketball fans is that they don’t follow college basketball that broadly and don’t really understand that a highly touted point guard experiencing growing pains is the norm and not always the result of some intricate Rick Barnes mindfuck.

Barnes’ critics over the last couple of years have wanted him to recruit more program guys. This is what a team of program guys looks like as freshmen. Texas is really starting to play good basketball. I hope there is still time to right the ship for this season, and get to the NCAA tournament. Although my optimism is fading.

The anger at Barnes “failing” to develop his high profile recruits is misplaced. Barnes has sent his last five 5* recruits into the first round, and with the exception of Damion James, all were good enough to leave as underclassmen. That’s not including DJ Augustin, who in retrospect should’ve been ranked higher coming out of HS. That’s also not counting LaMarcus Aldridge, who was in a class with Daniel Gibson (proven not to be a PG) and Mike Williams (Barnes’ only real high profile disappointment). In fact, most of the misplaced anger stems from two recruits—Avery Bradley and Cory Joseph—both of whom look destined to be hybrid guard journeymen that wouldn’t have developed PG skills no matter which coach they played for.

In retrospect, Joseph and Bradley stand up quite well to their peers. Seriously, take a look at the 2010 Rivals 150 and tell me who below Joseph had a better year than him. Terrence Jones, Tristan Thompson certainly, maybe Doron Lamb, farther down the list Jeremy Lamb… And while Joseph didn’t play at the same level as a Jared Sullinger or Harrison Barnes, he certainly was a heck of a lot better than flameout Josh Selby. Do the same exercise with Avery Bradley and the Rivals 2009 list; it’s a similar comp.

As long as Barnes continues to turn and churn those diaper dandies (and yes, I think Kabongo is on that list, either this year or the next), Austin remains a desirable location for top recruits.

I am a Barnes supporter and wish him nothing but the best. But sometimes I close my eyes and imagine a Frank Haith coached Horns team. Recruits watching an entertaining fast paced offense, players having fun, high fiving, the drum electric, players hugging the coach.

Agree with jc on 9-9. It’s doable, especially with the muddle of the middle of BCS leagues, but Texas is hurt by not having done much outside of conference. Ironically, at the moment, Temple is a top-20 RPI win. We’ll see where it ends up. At 9-9, it’s totally in the committee’s hands.

KenPom has a category on his conference pages ranking conference strength of schedule. Now, by the end of the season, the B12 SOS will be equal because of the double round-robin (or approximately equal if B12 tournament games are included, but I digress). Right now, Texas has played the second toughest schedule in the league, and it will be the toughest by next week, after the Big Monday game against Missouri. This is no time to give up on the 10-win goal. February is a breather by comparison.

Need to beat Iowa State tomorrow, though. Got to even that up if they’re on the board with the Cyclones.

realmccoy: You can’t be serious. Haith is a good coach, but he has a bench-full of experience. Top ten in D-I, while Texas is near the bottom 10.

The offense at times was just butt-ugly. There were multiple possessions, especially in the second half, where 3 guys would stand in one place and not move the entire possession. Really horrible

I’m just frustrated with the close losses. Turn 3 or 4 of them around and we’d be 16-3 and talking about #1 or #2 seeds.

I know I’m admitting something I shouldn’t on a Texas board, but, when Texas went up 64-60, I left the room because I knew we’d somehow blow it. With my history of post Texas loss anger, I just felt that I couldn’t take it and went to take a shower.

Tonight is a must win game, and Iowa State isn’t a pushover.

Lose this game and UT will have to pull off some major upsets on the road to have any chance for NCAA tourny.

Not sure how much longer Barnes can stumble along with all the resources at his disposal. At some point fans like myself aren’t going to bother putting in the effort to go to the games or watch them on TV and support the program if we’re nothing more than a NBA bus stop.

My god some of yall are the biggest bunch of pessimistic downers, I hate Texas fans sometimes. This reads almost as bad as a football game thread.

Watch some College Hoops outside of Austin sometime. Roy WIlliams at UNC was in the NIT 3 years ago. Jim B and Syracuse were also in the NIT. Maryland has been a trainwreck more often than not since they won the title. UConn was garbabe

Tom Izzo at Michigan State was left for dead before barely squeeking into the tournament last year at 9-9 in conference- a trick the horns are hoping to pull off.

We’ve made the Tournament 13 years in a row, something 3 schools have exceeded (Duke, Kansas and Michigan State) and 2 schools have equaled (Gonzaga and Wiscy).

Once we’ve gotten there we haven’t won it all, sure, but we’ve been to a final 4, we’ve been to 3 elite 8’s and a few more sweet 16’s. We’ve only lost 2 or 3 times in the first round I think.

We’ve got more tournament wins in the Rick Barnes era than all but a hand ful of schools.

That’s the success by the numbers.

Along the way we’ve been fortunate enough to be able to watch and now claim as our own one of the best players that ever went to college in my lifetime (I’m 33 so I started watching college hoops a lot as a 7 year old in the mid 80’s with Hoya Paranoia, Tark the Shark, Hank Gathers and guys of that era) in Kevin Durant. TJ Ford and DJ Augustin were really fun to watch, and that’s to say nothing of guys like Deginald Erskin, Brian Boddicker, Brad Buckman, Mouton, Ivey and some of their contemporaries. From that standpoint we’ve had some fun guys to watch, some quality individuals that you want to root for, a fantastic academic program where guys keep coming back summer after summer after summer to get their degree and be a part of the team and program.

It pains me we haven’t won a national title yet. We have been really unfortunate that the timing was never right. 1 more year out of TJ and there is no doubt in my mind we win one. It sucks that his body was held together with duck tape and bailing wire and Barnes essentially kicked him out for his own good so he could get paid before what happened to him happened. God Bless him and I hope he enjoys the $50 million or so he made.

If Kevin Durant was 1 year older and played with the team before him that went to the elite 8 we win the national title in a walk as well. So far it hasn’t been meant to be, but if this Frosh class (minus Kabongo) stays all 4 years, and we continue to add in lotto talent 1 and done then this team makes a final 4 and maybe wins it all.

I don’t love everything about Barnes but I like most things.

You guys do realize we lost 158% of all our scoring or rebounding or assits from last year, after you get past J’Covan Brown we return 2 players that combined for about 12 productive minutes in their total careers in Austin, and we are playing 6 freshmen and only 9 scholarship players total against one of the hardest schedules in the country, right? And while we are doing all this we haven’t been blown out, we’ve lost 2 agonizingly close games in a row against really good teams, and we’ve fought our asses off while not giving any quarter to the older, more talented teams we’ve been playing?

Yes the sky is falling. Lets fire Barnes.

Wulaw, I appreciate the dose of perspective. While I am disappointed at the outcomes of the last few games, I am optimistic about the upcoming stretch. My biggest fear is that the effort, intensity, and quality of play that we have exhibited in playing those games close and fighting back from deficits against really good teams doesn’t show up against the lesser squads. This stretch is brutal, but we’ve hung in there when it was just as likely that we’d get blown out. If we keep that up (there’s that key word - consistency), I like our chances at 8-4 the rest of the way.

Thanks for the write up. Was Julian Lewis good in HS or was he a volume shooter?

Disappointing loss, but big picture there’s a lot to be excited about.

For one, if Texas misses the Tourney this year, fans may realize that Rick Barnes has brought this program 13 (!!) straight appearances. That’s a remarkable accomplishment.

Clint Chapman probably had his best game at UT; he made himself some money on Saturday. A 6’10 guy whose not a complete stiff and who can knock down a mid-range J will make a living playing pro basketball somewhere. Connor Atchley is still collecting paychecks.

Most importantly, in terms of NBA draft circles, there’s a lot of high upside freshmen points — Trey Burke (Michigan), BJ Young (Arkansas), Tony Wroten (Washington) — performing at least as well as Kabongo, so it’s looking a lot more likely that he’s coming back.

The ACC is a better than the Big 12. I don’t put down years on the same level. Thing is, you know NC is bouncing back, the same as UConn who also plays in a tough basketball region. Also, Texas doesn’t have that championship peg to hang their hat on and they’ve proven they couldn’t get it done with the some of the best talent in the NBA. Horn fans have to go on faith at this point. I just watch the Horns because they’re entertaining—not because I think they’re going to actually come close to winning it all. Sorry, but the last two years tourney exit wounds are still pretty fresh. But here comes the faith again—I do think this team has some grit and hopefully has learned that they can beat every team in the conference. They’ve proven they can hang—now they have to close which is easier said than done. Win two against BU, Missouri, KU or KState and I think the Horns get in if they can also get past the first game in the Big 12 tourney.

I think most of the pessimism comes from the tournament performances the last couple of years. Texas hasn’t gotten out of the 1st weekend of the tournament the last 3 years and 4 of the last 5. During that time we had 4-5 players play a year or two and leave. We had a team rank #1 and then fall into an abyss. And this year Texas will be lucky to even make the tournament. I think Texas basketball fans have a right to be frustrated. If we are ever going to be a “basketball” school, the fans have to expect the program to succeed. One kind of goes with the other. I understand that this years class COULD turn into something really good in 2-3 years, but some of us trust Barnes a little less now.

What I hold Barnes most accountable for is his roster management. For comparable schools, he has probably done the worst job at it and that is why the tournament performance has been what it has been. Relying on 5 freshmen in any year is going to cause major problems. Texas has 3 non-freshmen contributors and he hasn’t even filled all his allocated scholarships. That is terrible Really terrible.

I like Barnes better than Penders. Barnes has accomplished the most of any basketball coach at Texas. But that doesn’t give him a pass to mismanage his team. I applaud the 13 straight years in the tournament. Hopefully it will be 14 this year. If not, it has been a great run. But another 2-3 years like the last 3 and I will be ready to see who else out there would like a shot to coach at Texas.

The ACC is a better than the Big 12.

No, it’s not.

Agreed 100% with Monahorns.

And I think the Roy Williams/Tom Izzo comparison is a poor one. Those guys have multiple national titles on their resumes. Yes, that makes a difference. There is little doubt, even if those guys are down, that they are still building their programs back to a championship level; they’ve proven that they can sustain that level of play. We can only hope that Barnes is doing the same, but my personal faith in him has taken a hit these past few seasons. I know he’s not going anywhere, so we’ll see what happens. Another stud or two to mix with these young guys we’ve got (in addition to the ones coming next season) might make things interesting again.

It will also be interesting to observe in future years whether Barnes has learned anything from his recent shortcomings. Hoping Rob Lanier will help out there.

Not sure how much longer Barnes can stumble along with all the resources at his disposal.

I hate it when even Texas fans default to “We’re Texas” and therefore always should do well. I mean, the guy did win 28 games last year, and did get screwed out of No. 29.

And I think the Roy Williams/Tom Izzo comparison is a poor one. Those guys have multiple national titles on their resumes. Yes, that makes a difference. There is little doubt, even if those guys are down, that they are still building their programs back to a championship level; they’ve proven that they can sustain that level of play.

Izzo has one title. Williams has two. For at least one of those, he re-recruited his core to stay an extra year. If Barnes could have done that, he would have won at least one by now. And Williams has had several tournament flops with very good teams, while Izzo has had four teams in the last 10 years go to the NCAA and not win a game. Barnes hasn’t managed that since 2001.

Go back over the last decade, and you will be shocked at how close the records of Izzo and Barnes are.

What I hold Barnes most accountable for is his roster management. For comparable schools, he has probably done the worst job at it and that is why the tournament performance has been what it has been.

Barnes had the whole team leave in 2006. He was able to rebuild on the fly with Durant and Augustin (who was much better much sooner than anticipated). This year hasn’t worked out so well. But if you’re a fan, you’ll stick with this team, right, because it won’t be devastated by one-and-dones?

BiH, I am a Longhorn fan, period. This is the only team I get passionate for football or basketball, so sticking with the team is all I got.

That said, I think one of the reasons Texas hasn’t had any teams that were considered tournament flops is because none of us expect our teams to get to Final 4s or win. Those KU and UNC teams that flopped were conference winners, top 10, and #1-#2 seeds in the tournament. Call me when Texas is consistently doing 2 out of 3 above heading into a tournament. When that starts happening then you will see some flops because expectations will be so high.

Until then. Go Horns!

My mistake, I thought Izzo had two. But even one championship buys that kind of credit (and the multiple Final Four appearances also have to factor in with Izzo).

And we did lose to Wake Forest in the first round two years ago.

Are we really comparing Rick Barnes to Tom Izzo and Roy Williams? There aren’t many coaches who are going to come out looking like roses in comparison to those two.

And yes we are Texas, but look at the attendance at non-conference home games against non-elite teams in the Rick Barnes era. That’s just not going to happen at a basketball-first school like UNC.

The more fair comparisons are Thad Matta at Ohio State and Billy Donovan at Florida. Barnes doesn’t have Donovan’s national titles, but a college team with two well-rounded two-way All-Star caliber post players pretty much coaches itself, and Barnes has been much more consistent overall.

We can’t say that Barnes would have won one by now if he…..that’s all speculation. The more difficult question is the one Blake asked on the another thread which is who would replace him. Transitional coaches at VCU from the bench at Duke have shown that they stumble leading the big teams—Caple, Snyder & Amaker although his teams were alright at Michigan and now Harvard which isn’t a step up. So a Shaka Smart isn’t necessarily the answer and watching Laranega at Miami is interesting but may not fare better. I compare Barnes teams more with Pitt although the Horns have performed better. Ohio State though has risen up in recent.

BIH, would you say that Izzo does more with less?

Bob in Houston said: January 24th, 2012 at 12:49 pm
Not sure how much longer Barnes can stumble along with all the resources at his disposal.

I hate it when even Texas fans default to "We’re Texas" and therefore always should do well. I mean, the guy did win 28 games last year, and did get screwed out of No. 29.

Monahorns comments parallel mine. I’m extremely happy that Barnes has been the UT coach for the last 12+ seasons. I don’t expect us to be perennial Top 10 or Sweet 16, but I am concerned with what I see as a continuation of a trend.

Given the talent we’ve had over the last couple of years the results are subpar by any standard, especially tournament results and specifically two things, a) reliance on one player to provide the points b) end of game mismanagement.

We’ve got a very young team this year so mistakes are expected, but the mistakes I’ve seen on offense were there when we had veterans as well.

Looking ahead to next season, if J’Covan and Myck take off early, we’re “rebuilding” again without a seasoned PG. Gibbs might emerge as a decent PG, or perhaps Javan Felix shows up ready for prime time.

Lately, when I watch UT basketball I feel like I’m sitting next to Damocles and Sisyphus.

tjarks,

two well-rounded two-way All-Star caliber post players pretty much coaches itself—Jerry Tarkanian proved at UNLV.

Mona- you decry his roster management but the fact of the matter is he did not expect either Corey Joseph or TT to go pro after one year- those were both real surprises. If those guys are back then this 6 man class is a good bridge to Ridley and the other 2012 guys as well.

Barnes didn’t set out to have 9 scholarship players this year, he was justifiably surprised that Joseph made himself a first rounder and TT made himself a top 5 player with 1 year on campus. Neither would have seemed a likely bet in March of 2010 when we were signing those guys.

kemit, I would have liked the chances of the 2007 squad if it could have kept Aldridge, Gibson and Tucker, plus Augustin and Durant. That’s essentially what Roy Williams was able to do in 2009. But your mileage may vary.

Izzo backed away from most of the early outs after being burned in 2001, but he’s still brought in a lot of high-profile talent. Since 2000, he’s signed eight McD A-As, where Texas and Kansas have signed 12. Izzo is still in the top ten nationally on that list, and he has brought in Keith Appling and Branden Dawson the last two years. So, no. But he does have a lot less turnover.

Wyatt, sorry… two first-round losses… one to Wake and the other to Nevada in 2005. What I was recalling was that Barnes has not lost to a double-digit seed since 2001 (first-round loss to Temple).

My first call if Barnes were to leave tomorrow would be to Izzo. Assuming he turns it down, I would call Jamie Dixon. I’d back-channel a call to Bill Self, but he wouldn’t do it. Same with Thad Matta. After that, you’re guessing.

tjarks: Barnes is Donovan and Donovan is Barnes. Same recruiting philosophy. Difference is that where Barnes usually clips a win or two in the tournament every year, Donovan has had three FF trips and last year’s EE. The rest of the tournament landscape is pretty doggone barren. Matta hasn’t been that great in the tournament, save for the Oden team. Still seems like a pretty darn good package.

Texoz, I do feel that pain.

That said, the 2010 team was poisoned by individual agendas and Barnes blinking in the spotlight. The longer the tailspin, the less I blamed Barnes. But last year, nobody expected this team to get to the top five and be in position to sweep the league. As I posted the other day, I attribute a significant share of the failure to Barnes. But I can’t think of those newcomers as having been uncoached to get to that position, that talent alone that floated that boat.

Bob: I like Jamie Dixon, but he’s got two Big East regular season conference titles and one Elite 8 appearance. Dixon struck gold with stellar back-to-back recruiting classes in 06-07 (Blair, Wanamaker, Gibbs, McGhee), but other than that there’s not been much to speak of. His transition to recruiting All-Americans hasn’t been smooth at all. Dante Taylor has disappointed, and Khem Birch left after a handful of games. His stellar team last year is basically what Texas as presently constituted (minus Kabongo) would look like if everything breaks right. Develop all your role players, maybe turn a couple of them into college stars, but struggle against the blue bloods because there’s no true difference makers. And you wonder why Barnes continues to recruit diaper dandies.

Tjarks: Don’t forget Gonzaga’s Kevin Pangos. Probably the most efficient freshman point guard in the country. Also, personally, I’d take Donovan and his peaks/valleys over Barnes. I’d also take Matta over almost any other coach.

Wulaw: I’d argue we’re pragmatic, not pessimistic.

Wulaw, yes I decree his roster management. He CANT EVEN FILL HIS SCHOLARSHIP ALLOTMENT! Sorry for the capitals but that’s pitiful. I would probably have more sympathy for Barnes in this regard but his whole sell to recruits is “come to Texas and I’ll get you into the NBA”. Since that is his message to recruits those that are apt to take the short route are much more likely to come to Texas. So Barnes is definitely part of the problem. He is not an innocent bystander of fate. About midway through the season last year, Barnes should have started recruiting an extra big man because it was obvious to all that Tristan was a one and done. It’s all about the contingency plan my friend!

Part of my perspective is working in the technology world. Project managers are evaluated based on results. Did he deliver what we told him to deliver when we told him to deliver it for the price he said he can deliver it with. Unknowns are a given. Obstacles are assumed. But that is what makes a good project manager, someone who can take uncertainty and unfortunate events and deliver anyway. And at least in my company if you don’t, your evaluation isn’t very sympathetic. Barnes simply has to be more flexible and proactive (even more quickly reactive) when dealing with roster issues. HE has decided to go after the players who are looking to go pro after a year, so HE needs to have a plan to compensate for it. That is if you want Sweet 16s and better. If you are happy with the last 3 years then good for you. But I want more.

Part of the problem with recruiting kids from Findley Prep is that they’re gone as soon as they even have a promise of being taken in the first round. They’ve been playing “semi-pro” ball for years and are simply counting down the days till they get paid. They’re great players and are accustomed to playing a high level of ball but you can’t count on them to stay, even when it makes sense to.

Now that Springman and his connections are gone, it seems like we’re going to go with a different model. Hopefully these kids stick and we can build a team up over the next few years becuase this year was shot months ago.

And you wonder why Barnes continues to recruit diaper dandies.

I hope this is rhetorical in application to me. I’m in favor.

NY Horn: Assume you mean Terry, not Springmann…

Also, that doesn’t mean the current model is not in operation. They had to rebuild the roster, and landed quite a few in the lower part of the top 100. They went hard after Smart, didn’t get him. They’re still Ridley’s favorite. Going over the RSCI list, I can spot at seven other guys in the top 40 that they were mentioned with at one point or another.

Barnes simply has to be more flexible and proactive (even more quickly reactive) when dealing with roster issues. HE has decided to go after the players who are looking to go pro after a year, so HE needs to have a plan to compensate for it.

I am sure you realize that that’s not how hoops recruiting works. You can’t jump in in January because you suddenly figured out your center is gonzo and expect to land an equitable replacement. You can’t just splurge for overnight delivery and keep the project on track. You may not recall; He did try to land a couple of guys who had a year or two to offer in the front court — they both went to Oregon. Either one, or both, would have made a difference this year.

Now, was he too tight with scholarships? Obviously. But he didn’t just fill up this year with random guys because he could. He left slots open because he is looking ahead.

God I hope more threads maintain this kind of atmosphere going forward. As pessimistic as I am, the fun thing about the tourney is that every team becomes a contender after the first week when they get their feet, confidence, and experience. The Horns might bloody well do better without stars, with less expectation to bear and a hot hand or two. I can also see it being a confidence booster if the did really well in the NIT. Now if they tank in the NIT—there’s going to be some unhappy folks.

BiH, good points all, but the fact is Barnes has to get better with contingencies or change his overall philosophy. It’s not working. Good thing is this year MAY signify a change.

And Ridley’s gone. If not, I don’t want to know how we got him. I really don’t.

Like you I’m not calling for someone else to be coach. I just want improvement. I am optimistic about the 2 years after this. I think there is a chance we keep this nucleus and add some diaper dandies to complement. It could be really exciting.